Helper issues. help please

[thanka2]

I agree with HK2008. I've seen one pretty messed up situation where the family had an elder who had had a stroke plus other illnesses and to go into a public nursing home would cost 6000 or something like that per month, as a consequence they decided to hire a helper to look after the grandfather (cheaper option) and live in their tiny flat as there is little by the way of another choice for the family. That or else turn him out brutally and hope social services does something for him. They were pretty poor and just getting by.
I mean honestly, if the whole family has only $10 for pork and the helper gets some - then to be fair, that family must on some level be good. I'm sure faced with a similar situation most mothers and fathers would reduce their own inatke for their children and the helper would go without.

Doesn't make much sense to me to be hiring a helper if you're in such financial straits. There is a reason why immigration checks your income and bank account (of course it's not too difficult to make it look like you've got plenty of money in the bank, though) before they okay a foreign helper application.

Well, $6,000/month for public nursing home versus $4,000/month PLUS food, housing (water, electricity, transportation) doesn't seem like much difference to me. The main difference is having the elderly person at home where he/she can experience more of a normal life surrounded by family members. If people are truly not able to afford to feed their helper and themselves decently better to apply for public assistance, in my opinion.

 

[charade]

Or maybe the employer is in fact really poor? I mean the $10 meat is for the whole family, isn't it? If the helper can still get a small cube out of that, I'd say it's not bad, eh? Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but most times we need to hear both sides of the story to pass a judgment.

If that is the case, then that doesn't detract from the fact that she was hungry, and not unreasonably so. My comment was in response to Rani's and meant to indicate that helpers do not always have control over what they eat at their employer's homes.

In the case I cited, the family was not poor but just very... odd. I choose to believe my helper on this because I have known her for long enough to trust her to not lie outrageously, just as I tend to trust family members and close friends. Since you do not know my helper, it's fair enough for you to be skeptical.

PS: Just wanted to clarify that none of this has any bearing to the original post.

 

[mummymoo]

Thanka2 I'm not saying that the job would be a great one for the helper at all, I'm just citing some mitigating reasons why if a family only has $10 for meat why the helper might not get any meat at all or be underfed like the rest of the family.

The choice of nursing home or staying with the family is really no choice at all if you can't afford the nice nursing homes. The places are really, really, really atrocious. Don't think about these homes from a western standard - that would be luxe in HK.... Moreover, if it is a choice between 6000HKD and a complete dump of place vs 4000 + in the family home where you can oversee the care of your father/mother with helper back up for work hours then the choice is straight forward, well to me anyway but I do agree the situation would be pretty horrendous for the helper.

anyway charade is right, this has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[thanka2]

Thanka2 I'm not saying that the job would be a great one for the helper at all, I'm just citing some mitigating reasons why if a family only has $10 for meat why the helper might not get any meat at all or be underfed like the rest of the family.

The choice of nursing home or staying with the family is really no choice at all if you can't afford the nice nursing homes. The places are really, really, really atrocious. Don't think about these homes from a western standard - that would be luxe in HK.... Moreover, if it is a choice between 6000HKD and a complete dump of place vs 4000 + in the family home where you can oversee the care of your father/mother with helper back up for work hours then the choice is straight forward, well to me anyway but I do agree the situation would be pretty horrendous for the helper.

anyway charade is right, this has nothing to do with the OP.

Still does not justify bringing a stranger into the situation and lying to them (and immigration) by allowing them to believe they will be cared for just because your own family has a tough situation. If I was the helper I would get out as soon as I could but not all helpers are well-equipped to do so.

Anyway, charade said her helper's previous employers were odd, not poor.

I think the point is that we can't assume that helpers are all being treated well, fairly or even legally. And I think it's a human right's issue. But, in the case of the OP, she seems to have met the standard for fair and legal treatment of her helper.

 

[elle]

Thanka2 I'm not saying that the job would be a great one for the helper at all, I'm just citing some mitigating reasons why if a family only has $10 for meat why the helper might not get any meat at all or be underfed like the rest of the family.

The choice of nursing home or staying with the family is really no choice at all if you can't afford the nice nursing homes. The places are really, really, really atrocious. Don't think about these homes from a western standard - that would be luxe in HK.... Moreover, if it is a choice between 6000HKD and a complete dump of place vs 4000 + in the family home where you can oversee the care of your father/mother with helper back up for work hours then the choice is straight forward, well to me anyway but I do agree the situation would be pretty horrendous for the helper.

anyway charade is right, this has nothing to do with the OP.

Life is tough, but if you can't afford to meet your obligations when hiring a domestic helper (and paying them at least a minimum wage and either a food allowance or adequate food) then you shouldn't do it - find another way to deal with your hardship. Letting a low wage employee who is in all liklihood in a more desparate financial situation that you are go hungry and become malnourished (while, apparently, doing some pretty heavy duty work as taking care of the elderly is very physically demanding) because you can't afford it simply wrong.

 

[Portia]

Doesn't make much sense to me to be hiring a helper if you're in such financial straits. There is a reason why immigration checks your income and bank account (of course it's not too difficult to make it look like you've got plenty of money in the bank, though) before they okay a foreign helper application.

Without getting into the issues about why this particular helper is getting very little to eat, just want to point out that Immigration will only check to make sure the household earns a minimum of $15,000 per month, so there are families who don't earn much who still have a helper.

 

[mummymoo]

Thanka2, I always respect your input but in this case I must disagree. Although we have far digressed from the OP posted, I want to clarify that I think that there would be situations where I or one of the GB crowd would feel was cruel to a helper that another person might not. Sometimes it is a matter of opinion. For example if the a helper was receiving a share of the meager meat a family eats then that family may not feel they are being cruel to the helper. Some families allow their helper only to eat the 'local food' and not the imported stuff, can you see how some would call this unfair to the helper whilst some think it is perfectly au fait?

Example two, if a helper has to share a room with a child, some on this forum would feel this is an invasion of privacy and cruel to the helper but what if everyone in the family had to share rooms? Should a family that can't afford a private room for the helper not have a helper. Personally I think this should be the case (in fact my helpers even have a lounge area but am I right to insist that any one who doesn't provide this for their helpers is an unfair undeserving employer?) After living here a while I can see that in the absence of affordable quality childcare, this may be the only option.

same as the example of the local family where gramps is in need of care and they can't afford and don't want the terrible care in the state run nursing homes. I don't know the family well but I don't think they are unkind people. They pay the minimum wage to the helper, she eats whatever they eat and its probably not what you or I would call a nutritious meal, and I certainly don't want that job, but are they being cruel to their helper - well that is a matter of opinion.....

 

[Gracey]

Sorry, Mummymoo, But I agree with Thanka here.
If you cannot afford to house and feed your helper decently, as required by law, you should not have a helper.
It's a tough call. And it's terrible that some Hong Kong families are very poor. But two wrongs don't make a right.

While there may be some families direly in need, I hear plenty of these excuses ("we don't have extra money," "we don't have anyone to take care of grandma/ baby on Sunday", "those women would suffer back home anyway", "I got a paycut so I'll cut her pay, too") from perfectly fine working-class and middle-class Hong Kongers looking for excuse to underfeed, underpay and overwork their helpers.

Outside HK, having full-time, live-in help is a luxury.

It's awful that some HK social services are bad for the elderly and ill. But I don't think we should take that out on a Filipina helper. It's not her fault.

 

[mummymoo]

Gracey, there is no question that employers MUST follow the law when it comes to domestic helpers - it starts to become a bit grey when people seek to become the one voice and dictate to others what the interpretation of that it.

What do you mean by housing and feeding a helper 'decently'. It may mean different things to different people. To some people housing a helper decently means their own private room and a private toilet. To others who all share rooms, it wouldn't be correct to give the helper her own private room when everyone else shares.

What do you mean by decent food. To a large number of my friends, they feel food from the wet market is not fit for human consumption because of the food abuses from China. Does that mean if a family eats food from the wet market and gives it to the helper that they are being indecent? Or what if the family eats all imported stuff and gives the helper a food allowance and the helper can't afford to eat from imported goods, is this an example of indecent treatment of a helper? Can you see that shy of violating the existing laws, interpretation of decency is very much a judgemental decision and one should try to aim for tolerance in this respect.

I think its up to immigration to make the call as to whether or not an employer meets the bare legal obligations to enable them to employ a helper. After that an assessment of individual intentions usually reveals whether people are being fair to their helper or not.

 

[thanka2]

What do you mean by decent food. To a large number of my friends, they feel food from the wet market is not fit for human consumption because of the food abuses from China. Does that mean if a family eats food from the wet market and gives it to the helper that they are being indecent? Or what if the family eats all imported stuff and gives the helper a food allowance and the helper can't afford to eat from imported goods, is this an example of indecent treatment of a helper? Can you see that shy of violating the existing laws, interpretation of decency is very much a judgemental decision and one should try to aim for tolerance in this respect.

Thinking back to the part of the thread that got us on the topic of food, I think we were basically talking about caloric intake...meaning...is the helper able to eat enough (amount) of food to get enough calories to work at her optimum? We were talking about employers who ration out food and helpers who are literally going hungry because of that. Not because they're turning their nose up in the air at food offered or because they has such expensive tastes that a food reasonable food allowance cannot see them through the month. We weren't talking about picky helpers--we're talking about employers who are not treating their helpers as they would like to be treated in the same circumstances. At least that's my take.