When Does Breastfeeding Stop "Sucking" ?

[thanka2]

Thanks Nicole, I think you read my post as it was intended. Yes HK society creates a lot of needless breastfeeding problems, and many mothers and babies suffer because they wanted to but got bad advice. I was thinking of you today as I love to follow your blog, Maddy is just a treasure!

Of course there are mothers who cannot (physiologically, emotionally, circumstantially) and some babies who cannot (perhaps like Maddy). My post was not aimed at these families.

The statistics estimate mother/baby physiological reasons between 1.5-3%. So what I can't understand is why some estimates for formula feeding are around 50%? It doesn't add up.

Yes I am a lactivist, but I am also a reasonable person and not a fool, so I can see in some cases it genuinely doesn't work out. But I do wish society would try harder to encourage breastfeeding where possible!

Good luck mummies and babies

Thanks for softening your tone some. If you are a "lactivist" as you say, just know that you can "catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"--especially when it comes to this topic.

There are a TON of family unfriendly things about HK and the fact that there is little or no breastfeeding culture here is just one of those things. So, I think we also need to address issues like the fact that there aren't changing tables in restrooms, there aren't ramps in buildings, there aren't parks where there need to be and the government does little if nothing to encourage families in HK even in practical ways like financially. I'd say the government is doing it's part with breastfeeding because the public hospitals here are pro-breastfeeding.

But, there isn't a lot we can do to change a culture that makes people into machines and expects them to serve the company first and all others second. You're basically up against the corporate structure in HK. Oh, and then there is the input of extended family (which many parents still live with) that gets in the way. And there are misguided doctors (a lot of them)--but they're not just misguided in this area--for some it's many areas.

For many, it's just simply a logical choice to formula feed. It's not easy to navigate breastfeeding in crowded malls or on the MTR for a beginner (I tried to breastfeed in a sushi restaurant last week and drew a crowd from the kitchen behind us trying to peek inside my clothes! My husband looked up and was like, "You've attracted an audience." So there is also some major awkwardness)

The only thing we can do is a "won-by-one" approach--by being supportive advocates to our friends and families first (which doesn't include beating them over the head with the "Breastfeeding Bible"). But, you must realize you're having to change an entire culture where breastfeeding is one of those "backward" activities that poor women from Mainland China who can't afford the luxury of formula do (there really is this belief!)

 

[thanka2]

Genkimom,

I expected this kind of flak and will probably get more of it, because it is a sensitive subject, and those who don't breastfeed get very defensive. If you have a genuine reason (physical, emotional or circumstantial) then there is no need to defend your decision is there? Its simply the way it is.

My post was intended more to highlight very common, preventable problems, which in HK often results in stopping breastfeeding unnecessarily. Breastfeeding is highly misunderstood, even by health professionals, and no-one would say that the worldwide decline in breastfeeding is a good thing! I think my post was quite factual, if there are particular points you wish to dispute, feel free to do so.

You can call me inexperienced if you want, but really you know very little about me, my background or my start to breastfeeding. I actually know a reasonable amount about breastfeeding, which did help me to establish breastfeeding my son without major problems. It was not textbook, I worked very hard at it, got no sleep initially, but that goes with the territory doesn't it? You can PM me if you want to know more about my background.

I do have empathy for those who tried, but it doesn't ease my frustration at the many more who would have been able to continue if they had the right help / information, which is hard to come by in HK.

Your post is quite aggressive which I think is unnecessary, considering if you go back and read my post, most of the 'blame' is aimed at the health system and health professionals.

Cheers,

Lali

I'd like to add that I think there are more women who don't breastfeed because of physiological problems than the statistic you quoted. I wonder where you gather this statistic from--and how was the data collected?

I have a close friend in the States who breastfed her son for eight weeks and at his eight-week appointment, even though she had also been seen by lactation consultants and doctors who assured her she was on the right track and he was getting enough milk, he was back to his birth weight. She thought she just had a collicky baby on her hands but it turns out the reason why he cried so much was that he was starving to death and no, her breasts did not produce breastmilk--she really didn't have any even though she had all the signs like the feeling of let-down and engorgement etc.

It was mentally very traumatic for her to come to grips with the fact that her child was starving and she had stood by not knowing for almost two months. He went on formula and is a very happy and healthy 3-year-old now.

I also noticed that you said you have empathy for women who choose not to breastfeed but in your own case the reason why you had a positive breastfeeding experience was that you already knew a lot about breastfeeding so you established breastfeeding without major problems. In my understanding, empathy is something you have for someone when you've actually experienced something similar. So, how can you really empathize with the women who have posted above that for whatever reason chose not to breastfeed? I don't think it's really possible.

I just have to say that you seem to communicate an air of "well, because I prepared and had the knowledge and worked hard, I was successful"--which of course is true in your case--but actually isn't always the recipe for success in other cases. You can understand and know all the mechanics and do everything right as far as breastfeeding goes and it still can be a miserable experience or even a failure. Yes, knowledge is power and you can do everything in your power to breastfeed successfully and it can still not work--and many times it doesn't.

Again, you're not doing your case as a "lactivist" much good. You said that you aimed your original post at the health care professionals but you used the personal pronoun "you" and "your" over and over again--who are you talking to? The doctors? Are they the ones breastfeeding? No, I assume that "you" means "breastfeeding mother."

So it reads like this--a short diagnosis of all the possible problems that could come up and a quick answer or command of what the mother should do. It's like saying, "I know why you're having problems and if you'd just straighten up your act, then, things would go well for you" (at least that's how it seems to me). In a way, it's kind of like preaching to the choir as the women who posted to this thread are already breastfeeding or have breastfed--they have already taken the steps to at least give breastfeeding a fair trial--they're not like the "typical local women" who just go to formula without really trying out breastfeeding--so you can just assume that if they had/have problems they are not surface problems like "well, my nipples were sore the first day so I quit"--so the browbeating (and honestly, that's how it comes off) isn't really necessary here--or at least might be worded better:

Your breasts are capable of producing enough milk...
If you interfere too much...
If you do as nature intended, which is to feed your baby only breast milk, on demand, then it is unlikely you will have supply problems.
If you "don't have enough milk" which is something I hear a lot of in HK, then do something about it. [again, assuming they haven't]
Why feed your baby highly refined, artificial baby milk (usually from another animal - a cow) when you can feed him or her a highly digestible, compatible substance such as your own milk?

So, after this, you only get around to mentioning the role of health-care providers in the 8th paragraph of your post--at nearly the end. And you are definitely not as commanding and harsh about their behavior.

If you choose to have your baby in the nursery so you can get some rest, then you can expect problems with your milk coming in, and because your baby is likely to be bottle fed in the nursery, likewise you can expect some breast-refusal, nipple confusion and latch problems..

So, I just want to add that there are many reasons why women make use of the nursery at the hospital. With my first birth I nearly died because I lost so much blood. I could not stand up or function for two days. AND...at least in the public hospitals (where I would say most babies in HK are born) you can require that they not feed your child formula and instead bring the child to you for feeds--so putting your child in the nursery doesn't really affect things one way or another--if you know how you want to manage things. Putting your child in the care of the nursery doesn't always mean they're being fed formula--mine wasn't and I did breastfeed from day one and I still had every problem there is to have with breastfeeding pretty much. Let my experience be a testament that you can work tirelessly and do "everything right" and still have a bad breastfeeding experience.

Also, you might mention that breastfeeding is a relationship and if we are to really "enjoy this wonderful act" with our babies then it has to be a two-way street. This means that the mother and her comfort and well-being are every bit as important as the baby's. Also, the baby has a role to play--some babies are really, really not good at breastfeeding and make it a terrible experience for their mothers--despite the best efforts of the mother. Yes, in the beginning, the mother has to really give more but it can't be a healthy relationship if she's miserable--simply cannot be.

 

[thanka2]

I wondered about what women in my case did before formula, so I did some research. And I learned in the past, they hired wet nurses add to their supply, or in tribal areas, all the women shared their milk and babies breastfed from whomever was closest, and so if one had a low supply, they just went to another woman in the tribe. Mountain communities in isolated areas used sheep or goats milk. So you see, women have always found a way to nourish their baby if their baby couldn't drink their milk, for whatever reason. It may be a modern trend to go directly to formula from birth, but life-threatening breastfeeding problems it is certainly not a modern problem.

Genkimom, thank you for your post. I too, feel that breastfeeding brings up a lot of really strong emotions for me. I felt so ridiculous because when I was pregnant this time (I have two children now) I would sit in the waiting room of the public hospital and they'd always have the breastfeeding education video playing and even watching that sometimes ridiculous information video would have me tearing up thinking about the really incredibly rough time I had with breastfeeding. I felt totally defeated by the end--something I believed so much in and tried so hard to make work for the good of my child ended up not working. As I posted an article above about how women go through a grieving process when they try to breastfeed and can't--I could really relate to that.

And I am glad you did some research and learned about how women around the world in the past and now cope with breastfeeding problems. Along those lines, I felt I should mention here that on this forum there are women who do pump breastmilk and have excess that they are willing to donate as well as there is a Facebook group called Eats on Feets that facilitates milk sharing/donation here in Hong Kong. So, for those women who are open to this possibility, there is supply available here in HK.

Again, thanks for the post, Genkimom--we need to be more compassionate with each other for sure--being a mother--whether you breastfeed or not is a huge task. Formula isn't the best but it's not rat poison either and there are better quality choices in formula nowadays than there ever have been.

 

[Lali07]

Thanka2 you have directly quoted me as using the word "sissy"? I would NEVER use that term for a mother who doesn't breastfeed! I would like you to point out where I said that, its not fair to pull words out of the air like that.

I'm not going to apologise for my opinions on breastfeeding. I think it is an international tragedy that breastfeeding rates are going down.

Take whatever offense you like, if you are comfortable (maybe not the right word but don't have time to articulate here as I have a baby on my lap) with your decision then my opinion shouldn't matter.

I remember my beautiful sister trying to breastfeed her firstborn, it was so sad to watch. Her baby had blood on her face from my sisters nipples, my sister was in tears from the pain, her sweet baby crying because she was hungry. This went on for some time. She sought help from numerous sources, and after a lot of pain, a lot of time, she went on to enjoy breastfeeding. In those circumstances who could blame someone from choosing to formula feed.

OF COURSE I don't think mother's who formula feed are bad mothers! I know many wonderful mothers who formula feed. I don't think the method you choose to feed your baby has any bearing on your worth as a mother!

But I do think it is very very sad that in a developed country like HK, mothers give up breastfeeding for *preventable reasons* of which there are many. Or even worse, that doctors and other healthcare professionals, for the slightest (and rectifiable) reasons suggest formula.

My biggest pet peeve is the ridiculous weight (pardon the pun) they put on growth charts here. So what if your baby is on the 10th percentile? If he is gaining weight, there are no obvious health problems, is happy and doing lots of wet nappies, there is no need to supplement. But this is the first thing the doctor will suggest.

Surely you can't argue that the formula feeding rates here (~50%) are warranted?

 

[starbucks2]

I haven't read through all of the responses (clearly its a hot topic - there are so many!) but I fed both my kids to 11 months old and went back to work when they were 12 - 14 weeks old. Admittedly I breastfed my first child more feeds in the day but this meant I had to pump twice a day at work which was tough. Second baby I dropped to morning and evening feeds earlier on. I feel for HK working mums being back to work so quickly (some when the baby is only 9 - 10 weeks old - the maternity leave laws here are crazy). It is not easy to manage breastfeeding when you go back so soon. BUT it can be done if you are persistent and if you don't have to travel/work ridiculously long hours. I worked 9 - 6pm and managed ok to get home for the 7pm feed.

On the initial few weeks, it was difficult for me but I received help from Matilda midwives initially at the hospital then home visits from Annerley first time and second time from the lactation consultant at Central Health. All were awesome. I was well settled in and pain free from about 3 weeks on.

 

[pixelelf]

speaking of nurseries. with my first born, i refused to place him in the nursery. insisted he roomed in and had my husband carry him to me for breastfeeding. well i had a c sec and body was still in shock. and i had followed all the books say, to bring him to me every 2 hours (even if he's sleeping!!!) blood drew from my nipples but i told myself i must go on, heavens forbid. (what was i thinking?!?) this must be a big clue from heavens ha, cos for months, breastfeeding my son was difficult, painful and i was a wreck. even with lactation consultants. it only became better, when my sister came over and helped me by showing me how!

now with my second. ha. i wised up. we let her stay in the nursery and specifically told the nurses she is exclusively breastfed. to bring her to me when she is hungry. the 3 days in hospital, both husband and i rested so well, that by the time we got home, we were strong together, to go through with a super gassy baby and a super clingy preschooler.

 

[Gataloca]

I agree with Lali... but this topic is quite controversial, same as having a natural delivery vs. c-section.

Everybody want the best for their baby: natural delivery or breast feeding. But if someone cannot do it (or don't want to do it) for whatever reason, she should not be looked down on for "not having tried hard enough". Having a baby is stressful enough.

And about the comments about what women used to do years ago, when there were not such thing as formula (or c-section)... well, that is a reason why infant mortality (or maternal mortality) was much higher back then....

 

[Jzlyn]

Just had my first child in Feb. I have to say the first week of breastfeeding was a bloody pain literally. I had cracked nipples from the constant suckling on day 2 - my milk didn't come in till evening of day 3 but I persisted through the pain. Things only started to get better from week 2. But my little one had reflux, feeding was a pain for the next 2 weeks - she seems to be in discomfort everytime she is at the breast, it was a CONSTANT struggle. It was only when her reflux got better that we are starting to enjoy the process. She just turned two months yesterday and I absolutely love the bonding time from breastfeeding. Though I have to say some days it can be difficult, I feel like I'm constantly feeding her - we are feeding on demand.

 

[Gataloca]

I think sometime people give up breastfeeding due to ignorance... And note that I am not calling people ignorant, but because I almost gave up in several occasion because I just didn't know what the problem was. And as a first time mother, it was always easy to blame on "the baby doesn't stop crying, must be hungry... probably I don't have enough milk"

I remember times when the baby would refuse to sleep and would not stop crying even after he had been sucking for an hour or more. In occasion, I gave up and topped him with formula. After that, he would fall asleep and I would be able to finally take a break. But as I read, it is common for babies to get fussy during night time... it doesn't always mean that he is hungry... But I did top up my baby at night in occasions. Sometime I would wake up in the middle of the night to express milk, and save that for the next evening, just in case. I read the advice about "never top up (even during grow spurt), or your supply will drop" but I didn't follow it because I just couldn't deal with the crying, thinking that my baby might be hungry. Lucky for me, my supply didn't drop, probably because I never reduce the amount of time I put my baby on my breast.

... it was really a tough time. Everybody was pushing me to switch to formula instead of continuing breastfeeding. I just didn't, not because I knew what I was doing, but because I was just plain stubborn...

 

[thanka2]

Thanka2 you have directly quoted me as using the word "sissy"? I would NEVER use that term for a mother who doesn't breastfeed! I would like you to point out where I said that, its not fair to pull words out of the air like that.

No, I didn't. Go back and read that again:

So, before you come down hard on all the "sissy moms" (my words, not yours)...

I'm not going to apologise for my opinions on breastfeeding. I think it is an international tragedy that breastfeeding rates are going down.

You shouldn't apologize for your opinions but I'm just saying that if you really believe that more women should breastfeed, maybe consider your tone. Afterall, if your goal (which it may not be your goal) is to encourage more women to breastfeed there are more encouraging ways to do that. As I said, I don't find any disagreement with the actual information you shared--just the tone it was shared in. See, if I was having trouble breastfeeding, and we were friends or family, I certainly wouldn't be comfortable coming to you for help with the tone you presented here. What good does activism for a topic do if the way it is presented only drives people away?

Also, considering that this thread was specifically aimed at women who breastfed for more than six months (my original post that started the thread) comments that go on and on about how women in HK don't even give breastfeeding a chance aren't really on-topic for this thread. Maybe you should start another thread specifically talking about women in HK who don't give breastfeeding a fair trial and because of lack of information or whatever throw in the towel too soon. However, it's hard to say what "too soon" is because it's so individual.

Take whatever offense you like, if you are comfortable (maybe not the right word but don't have time to articulate here as I have a baby on my lap) with your decision then my opinion shouldn't matter.

I can't say I'm really all that offended just saddened.

I remember my beautiful sister trying to breastfeed her firstborn, it was so sad to watch. Her baby had blood on her face from my sisters nipples, my sister was in tears from the pain, her sweet baby crying because she was hungry. This went on for some time. She sought help from numerous sources, and after a lot of pain, a lot of time, she went on to enjoy breastfeeding. In those circumstances who could blame someone from choosing to formula feed.

That's great for your sister that she was able to find resolution through her perseverance--not all women can. And see, even if your sister didn't have problems and chose to formula feed for whatever other reasons I don't think we should "blame" her (or anyone else) for it.

OF COURSE I don't think mother's who formula feed are bad mothers! I know many wonderful mothers who formula feed. I don't think the method you choose to feed your baby has any bearing on your worth as a mother!

Hmmm...but the way you painted the picture was that they aren't doing a very good job of nourishing their children. I would take it a step further and say that not only are they not bad mothers, they are good mothers who are nourishing their children.

But I do think it is very very sad that in a developed country like HK, mothers give up breastfeeding for *preventable reasons* of which there are many. Or even worse, that doctors and other healthcare professionals, for the slightest (and rectifiable) reasons suggest formula.

Yes, but as with a subject that is something I care about (birth), it is the same story with c-sections and interventions in birth as well. It's a huge cultural thing and how are you going to address that?

My biggest pet peeve is the ridiculous weight (pardon the pun) they put on growth charts here. So what if your baby is on the 10th percentile? If he is gaining weight, there are no obvious health problems, is happy and doing lots of wet nappies, there is no need to supplement. But this is the first thing the doctor will suggest.

Surely you can't argue that the formula feeding rates here (~50%) are warranted?

No, and, I don't feel I need to argue about it. There are some other statistics in HK that I think are unwarranted as well--such as by some estimates a 60%+ c-section rate, a 29% abortion rate and the percentage of people who live in "cage dwellings." There are a lot of things in this city that really aren't the way they're supposed to be. My question is what can or should we individually do? I think the same can be said for breastfeeding and breastfeeding culture.

But, this thread was intended as a place for me (and others) to gather information about the real experiences of real mothers when it comes to breastfeeding--not what should be but what is. And from this I, and others, can gather encouragement and strength as we "fight the good fight." See, us breastfeeding mothers in this thread specifically are giving it our all.