Terminating Dishonest Helper - attached toddler
- Thread starter visitingthemoon
- Start date
howardcoombs
Registered User
As some people are sensitive when it comes to their kids and photography, it is important to know the law and know the difference between discomfort and unlawful. Leaving commercial and sexual photography aside as those topics have specific laws pertaining to them, when it comes to amateur photography there are very few restrictions in Hong Kong.
You have no right to privacy in a public location (eg: the hills, the street or the beach). I can photograph anyone I please, without getting in their way without interference from the law. Whether the subject is nature, an adult or a child does not change this.
You have no right to privacy in a privately held public location (eg: mall, church, concert venue, clubhouse). I can photograph anyone I please, without interference from the law. Whether the subject is an adult or a child does not change this. If I happen to violate rules imposed by the property owner (eg:no photos in clubhouses), I may be ejected and/or charged with trespass as well as mischief however there are no laws about photography.
You have no right to retroactively change your explicit or your implicit permission. If you invite me to your home, witness me taking pictures and 6 months later you decide that you didnt want me to have those pictures any longer whether it be pictures of you, your bathroom or your kids, there is no law to help you to compel me to give up or destroy those pictures. This thread is referring specifically to this case, where a helper over many days and weeks and months took pictures at her residence. As long as there is nothing sexual about them and the pictures are not being sold, the law will not assist in getting them removed/destroyed.
carang
Registered User
the accusations you have made have no place in this thread. your rant has nothing to do with what is a legitimate question regarding a specific incident with a helper.
What? This sort of thinking is why there are so many problems with the helpers. My home is NOT her home. My home is her place of employment. Her home is a place in the Phillipines.
I apologize for causing offense. I am afraid I had a knee jerk reaction to the above statement. The question from the OP is definitely legit and I ought not to have taken this on. Just sort of got the best of me...
I apologize for causing offense. I am afraid I had a knee jerk reaction to the above statement. The question from the OP is definitely legit and I ought not to have taken this on. Just sort of got the best of me...
I find this comment quite shocking. My home is my helper's home, to a certain extent of course, but still. She lives here 365 days a year, is part of our family, supports our family, cares for and about our children. That doesn't mean she's using my personal belongings, she doesn't take things without asking (just as I don't take her things without asking), but this is her home for now. Once you decide on hiring a helper there are certain things you have to accept and live with (obviously stealing, etc. is wrong, no doubt about that).
My helper takes occasional pictures of my children. She's proud of them, has been with us for 4 years, she shares them with her friends and family when she goes home. Her life is in Hong Kong, not in the Philippines, just as our lives are here in Hong Kong and not in Europe or the US. We are part of her life just as she's part of ours and we still have a normal employer / employee relationship, I am not her friend, but I care about her and respect her. I am grateful to have her. I personally don't see much harm in normal snapshot (non-sexual obviously) pictures. What's she going to do with them? No matter how you look at it, she's been a part of your life / family and you're a part of hers, it's only normal to have a few snapshots. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it ...
visitingthemoon
Registered User
Howardcoombs, out of curiosity, how many full time live in helpers have you ever employed? For many moms having a helper is the single most frustrating part of living in HK. Our family employs 3 full time live in helpers and the only one we have ever had to fire was this one. The other 2 have been with us 20 years and 30 years respectively. We treat all our helpers in our house with a lot a respect. We are polite but do not include them at the dinner table as part of the family like the previous poster. There are some matters we discuss that are family-only matters and we like to keep that within the family. They have full access to the Oliver's/City Super foods we eat and we give them a stipend of 800 each. But they are still the employees. They definitely eat better in our home than back at their home countries. They get 2 hour lunch breaks (they cook for themselves) and get to rest 12 hours, more than us. They work hard, yes, but so do we. And they never work harder than us.
We used to have the "our home is your home" mentality at first. However in my experience this backfires in so many ways. If my home is your home, then you are free to chat on the phone whenever you want, even while you are watching my kids? I have found that "home is her home" mentality has made it so that she begins to feel more entitled to chat for most of the day even when we, the owners, are trying to get work done. She is uncompromisingly loud on her phone and simply does not do things we have asked her to do. I did not want to get into the details but she oversteps her boundaries way too far. For example she will smirk when asked to hang up and stay on for another minute willfully. This is clearly a non-emergency gossip call. And if her home is my home then can she use the TV and my personal items she wishes?
The more you give her the more she takes. Getting her to do a simple task is like pulling teeth.
My children are taught to call them Auntie and be polite and say please and thank you to them at all times. However, as time passes, you can see she will take advantage and begin to control the house, making you, the home owner, tip toe around the house. Some (not all) are opportunists and do not really want to work here under the guidelines and standards set in place by the HK govn't and by our household. They enter your home with exactly that mentality that "this is my home now" and they take over the whole house. Im not saying all are like that. But a few bad apples are enough for me to change my world view or lens so to speak, and treat them as an employee, not as a co-worker/colleague.
At work I respect my employer who pays my salary and most people who work probably don't like going to work. It's not supposed to be leisurely. My job is to give them work not provide a home for them. Work is work! They came to HK to work in my home not to score a second home. Yes, life as a domestic helper SUCKS big time. I do agree on that and I feel for her because she is doing job she feels in beneath her qualifications. I don't think I have the tolerance to do what most of them have to do, but I'm in the lucky situation where I don't have to. But that does not mean they can steal, gossip instead of work, spit, and all the other things I have discovered just because they have a chip on their shoulder for the cards they were dealt.
I can sympathize with their situation but the reality is that having a full time live in helper doesn't mean my home suddenly becomes their home.
Yes I saw the movie The Help and I thought the daughter was a b****. * She deserved that pie for how she treated her helper. But going the other extreme and having the "my home is your home" attitude where everything is shared creates confusion and problems too. Not with all, but some.
I am the employer and she is the employee. But we don't mistreat her. We treat her politely, with respect even though she does not reciprocate. We give her all the food she wants, and she takes the best pieces to herself before serving the rest of the family. Her home is in the Phillipines with her family and she is more than welcome to return home at any time.
WRT the last post, howardcoombs esquire, please cite case law.
Posted via Mobile Device
We used to have the "our home is your home" mentality at first. However in my experience this backfires in so many ways. If my home is your home, then you are free to chat on the phone whenever you want, even while you are watching my kids? I have found that "home is her home" mentality has made it so that she begins to feel more entitled to chat for most of the day even when we, the owners, are trying to get work done. She is uncompromisingly loud on her phone and simply does not do things we have asked her to do. I did not want to get into the details but she oversteps her boundaries way too far. For example she will smirk when asked to hang up and stay on for another minute willfully. This is clearly a non-emergency gossip call. And if her home is my home then can she use the TV and my personal items she wishes?
The more you give her the more she takes. Getting her to do a simple task is like pulling teeth.
My children are taught to call them Auntie and be polite and say please and thank you to them at all times. However, as time passes, you can see she will take advantage and begin to control the house, making you, the home owner, tip toe around the house. Some (not all) are opportunists and do not really want to work here under the guidelines and standards set in place by the HK govn't and by our household. They enter your home with exactly that mentality that "this is my home now" and they take over the whole house. Im not saying all are like that. But a few bad apples are enough for me to change my world view or lens so to speak, and treat them as an employee, not as a co-worker/colleague.
At work I respect my employer who pays my salary and most people who work probably don't like going to work. It's not supposed to be leisurely. My job is to give them work not provide a home for them. Work is work! They came to HK to work in my home not to score a second home. Yes, life as a domestic helper SUCKS big time. I do agree on that and I feel for her because she is doing job she feels in beneath her qualifications. I don't think I have the tolerance to do what most of them have to do, but I'm in the lucky situation where I don't have to. But that does not mean they can steal, gossip instead of work, spit, and all the other things I have discovered just because they have a chip on their shoulder for the cards they were dealt.
I can sympathize with their situation but the reality is that having a full time live in helper doesn't mean my home suddenly becomes their home.
Yes I saw the movie The Help and I thought the daughter was a b****. * She deserved that pie for how she treated her helper. But going the other extreme and having the "my home is your home" attitude where everything is shared creates confusion and problems too. Not with all, but some.
I am the employer and she is the employee. But we don't mistreat her. We treat her politely, with respect even though she does not reciprocate. We give her all the food she wants, and she takes the best pieces to herself before serving the rest of the family. Her home is in the Phillipines with her family and she is more than welcome to return home at any time.
WRT the last post, howardcoombs esquire, please cite case law.
Posted via Mobile Device
I must say, I am inclined to agree with the OP. Helpers are not part of the family and the more you propagate this fiction, the more likely you're to develop problems 'good fences(boundaries) make good neighbours' and at the end of the day, it's simply not true. If your home was their home and they are truly 'part of the family' then they should be allowed to talk on their phone at any time, eat anywhere/any time, request special meals, sit and watch telly, take a nap on your bed, share your toiletries - this is what my mum, dad, sister, brother does when they come to visit. Also when they no longer decide to follow your instructions or don't wish to work for you any more, they are no longer welcome to reside at your place or be 'part of your family'.....
The fact that your home isn't their home does not equate with being an abusive employer and I think that is what most posters are getting worked up about. Not considering a helper a part of your family and not perpetuating the fiction that your home is their home "which is perfectly untrue" for reasons outlined above, and considering your helper an employee doesn't mean that you can't truly care for them, give then great employment terms, treat them fairly ect. I think the OP clearly treats her helpers more than fairly, the fact she is not being fictional and chanting away that they are part of the family does not make her bad employer or person. In fact if anything she is honest as I am, do great work and we will take care of you fairly as an employee, do poor work and you need to get going....
with regard to the post
they can't go home at night after a long day at work, only a small room with a bed. They can't fix themselves their favorite food after a particularly trying day with your children. They can't plan a trip home unless it is agreed upon they their employer, sometimes, they can't call either unless it is agreed upon by their employer.
What about nice clothes and getting dressed up? Mostly they would be accused of be slutty. Having a drink of wine? Oh my, they must be looking to get hooked up with a man.
they can't go home at night after a long day at work-true they signed up to work in someone else' home as a domestic helper, same way an engineer on an oil rig doesn't get to go home to his family. Sometimes life deals you a crap hand, it is what it is
only a small room with a bed - gross generalisation, our helpers have a room with a couch, tv, a bedroom alcove and private toilet/shower, another friend of ours has a separate residence for her helper downstairs complete with shared kitchen and toilet
They can't fix themselves their favorite food after a particularly trying day with your children - who says? They can use their own salary to buy whatever it is they want to prepare or snack on or god forbid, in my home, use their allocated grocery money to do this. My helpers choose their own food, I have enough to do without organising their meals as well (and they like it this way)
They can't plan a trip home unless it is agreed upon they their employer - you bet, and guess what I can't trip off overseas without negotiating it with my employer and team too, and yes, frequently I can't go
sometimes, they can't call either unless it is agreed upon by their employer - yep, I'm not allowed to chat for hours at work whilst doing whatever it is I am PAID to do, irrespective of whether it would interfere with my job or not.
What about nice clothes and getting dressed up? Mostly they would be accused of be slutty - perhaps by you but I like having my helpers look nice and gift them beautiful clothes which they pick out themselves from Marks and Spencer/ Zara for Christmases and birthdays
Having a drink of wine? Oh my, they must be looking to get hooked up with a man- yes perhaps by you. I've never harboured these thoughts when my helpers have a little tipple fact is they don't want to !)
The fact that your home isn't their home does not equate with being an abusive employer and I think that is what most posters are getting worked up about. Not considering a helper a part of your family and not perpetuating the fiction that your home is their home "which is perfectly untrue" for reasons outlined above, and considering your helper an employee doesn't mean that you can't truly care for them, give then great employment terms, treat them fairly ect. I think the OP clearly treats her helpers more than fairly, the fact she is not being fictional and chanting away that they are part of the family does not make her bad employer or person. In fact if anything she is honest as I am, do great work and we will take care of you fairly as an employee, do poor work and you need to get going....
with regard to the post
they can't go home at night after a long day at work, only a small room with a bed. They can't fix themselves their favorite food after a particularly trying day with your children. They can't plan a trip home unless it is agreed upon they their employer, sometimes, they can't call either unless it is agreed upon by their employer.
What about nice clothes and getting dressed up? Mostly they would be accused of be slutty. Having a drink of wine? Oh my, they must be looking to get hooked up with a man.
they can't go home at night after a long day at work-true they signed up to work in someone else' home as a domestic helper, same way an engineer on an oil rig doesn't get to go home to his family. Sometimes life deals you a crap hand, it is what it is
only a small room with a bed - gross generalisation, our helpers have a room with a couch, tv, a bedroom alcove and private toilet/shower, another friend of ours has a separate residence for her helper downstairs complete with shared kitchen and toilet
They can't fix themselves their favorite food after a particularly trying day with your children - who says? They can use their own salary to buy whatever it is they want to prepare or snack on or god forbid, in my home, use their allocated grocery money to do this. My helpers choose their own food, I have enough to do without organising their meals as well (and they like it this way)
They can't plan a trip home unless it is agreed upon they their employer - you bet, and guess what I can't trip off overseas without negotiating it with my employer and team too, and yes, frequently I can't go
sometimes, they can't call either unless it is agreed upon by their employer - yep, I'm not allowed to chat for hours at work whilst doing whatever it is I am PAID to do, irrespective of whether it would interfere with my job or not.
What about nice clothes and getting dressed up? Mostly they would be accused of be slutty - perhaps by you but I like having my helpers look nice and gift them beautiful clothes which they pick out themselves from Marks and Spencer/ Zara for Christmases and birthdays
Having a drink of wine? Oh my, they must be looking to get hooked up with a man- yes perhaps by you. I've never harboured these thoughts when my helpers have a little tipple fact is they don't want to !)
Moreover, if I understand it correctly google was not allowed/forced to remove images that were taken over the hedges/fences of homes as these are private residences, so my read on this is that yes one can control your own home and who gets to take pictures there ect,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View_privacy_concerns#cite_note-52
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View_privacy_concerns#cite_note-52
howardcoombs
Registered User
I dont see how that is relevant but the answer is 3 over 18 years.
...snip a whole lot of irrelevant discussion...
Thats the whole point, there is no case law. If you need professional advice, see a lawyer and you will get the same answer.
As for google : their issues came from other jurisdictions. They violated no laws in Hong Kong and were not required to remove anything in Hong Kong. I'm happy to be corrected if you can find&cite *Hong Kong* case law.
visitingthemoon
Registered User
I am sorry this thread has turned into this. I was simply asking for tips on how to handle my toddler.
Howardcoombs, my question is relevant. I say that "my home is your home" is the cause of the problem. You say that "my home is not your home" is the cause of the problem. I think we have correctly identified the issue. You are totally free to disagree as this is a forum and that's what these sites are for. However you have offended me by making an accusation that I will probably continue to have problems retaining help. If you have not hired and lived with full time help you would have no standing to say that. But, on the other hand, if you had personal experience then you would be in a position to say such things. That's why I asked whether you have actually had and lived with helpers. And that's why my question IS relevant.
Besides, this is a free open forum - not a courtroom - so a question doesn't even have to be relevant to be asked.
And the "rest" of the discussion is relevant because I was answering another posters question about how I treat my helpers. Not everything is directed towards you. There are other people in this discussion too.
Now if "that's the whole point" about there being no case law, then why are you stating the law yourself? Who gave you the right to legislate? Your second post was purporting to state the law itself. You drew distinctions between public and private places and then stated what is and is not allowed under those circumstances. That sounds like the law to me!
Posted via Mobile Device
Howardcoombs, my question is relevant. I say that "my home is your home" is the cause of the problem. You say that "my home is not your home" is the cause of the problem. I think we have correctly identified the issue. You are totally free to disagree as this is a forum and that's what these sites are for. However you have offended me by making an accusation that I will probably continue to have problems retaining help. If you have not hired and lived with full time help you would have no standing to say that. But, on the other hand, if you had personal experience then you would be in a position to say such things. That's why I asked whether you have actually had and lived with helpers. And that's why my question IS relevant.
Besides, this is a free open forum - not a courtroom - so a question doesn't even have to be relevant to be asked.
And the "rest" of the discussion is relevant because I was answering another posters question about how I treat my helpers. Not everything is directed towards you. There are other people in this discussion too.
Now if "that's the whole point" about there being no case law, then why are you stating the law yourself? Who gave you the right to legislate? Your second post was purporting to state the law itself. You drew distinctions between public and private places and then stated what is and is not allowed under those circumstances. That sounds like the law to me!
Posted via Mobile Device