Supply dropping... self-weaning?

[Lali07]

Gee Thanka2 something just doesn't add up. How can someone have so much faith in a mother's ability to birth a child but not to feed it? Seems your faith in both is directly related to your own personal experiences, not actual trust in the human body..

When natural birth fails = thank goodness for caesareans..
When breastfeeding fails = thank goodness for formula..

Unfortunately in HK and many western countries, the caesarean and formula-feeding rates are much higher than necessary.

I'm sorry breastfeeding has been difficult for you T2, but such negativity is not helpful. If breastfeeding were that difficult (yes it is that difficult for some, but not all) on the whole, the human race would have died out long ago.

Gataloca, I think you're doing a great job, obviously its a bit tricky since you're working!

Other Mamas, for some of you, breastfeeding may not work, and thankfully you can continue to nurse your baby by bottle. But before you give up on this potentially wonderful experience, seek the help of LLL or a lactation consultant. GPs and well-meaning friends just can't offer the same advice as someone trained in the specifics of breastfeeding.

Lali

 

[thanka2]

Gee Thanka2 something just doesn't add up. How can someone have so much faith in a mother's ability to birth a child but not to feed it? Seems your faith in both is directly related to your own personal experiences, not actual trust in the human body..

I trust my own body as far as my experience goes. If you had had my experience with breastfeeding you would likely see things differently and if I had had your experience I would also likely see things differently. As I detailed to you before elsewhere, it was not for a lack of trying that I did not breastfeed long-term--there are other factors at play than the ones so often touted by breastfeeding advocates. I find that many breastfeeding advocates oversimplify the process. Yes, there is a trouble-shooting guide but not all troubles can be successfully resolved, in my experience.

Unfortunately in HK and many western countries, the caesarean and formula-feeding rates are much higher than necessary

.

Yes, I agree. I think it is important to note that there is a difference between the local Hong Kong mindset toward breastfeeding and the expat mindset toward breastfeeding. I come from the latter. So, although I live in HK, my choice to breastfeed or not breastfeed isn't tied up with the local mindset here. I come from a place where breastfeeding rates are quite high and almost all of my friends have breastfed their children and it's no big deal. From that perspective, if one is unable to breastfeed, there doesn't seem to be much grace extended.

I'm sorry breastfeeding has been difficult for you T2, but such negativity is not helpful. If breastfeeding were that difficult (yes it is that difficult for some, but not all) on the whole, the human race would have died out long ago.

I think it's also not appropriate to downplay or discount the bad breastfeeding experiences out there as just "being negative." It's a real experience and I have empathy for anyone who chooses not to breastfeed. I congratulate women on making the right choice for themselves and sometimes that means not breastfeeding.

Gataloca, I think you're doing a great job, obviously its a bit tricky since you're working!

Would like to add that most HK mamas I know do work--including myself. Yes, it is tricky especially in a culture where breastfeeding is almost taboo.

Other Mamas, for some of you, breastfeeding may not work, and thankfully you can continue to nurse your baby by bottle. But before you give up on this potentially wonderful experience, seek the help of LLL or a lactation consultant. GPs and well-meaning friends just can't offer the same advice as someone trained in the specifics of breastfeeding

Agree, although I would add that sometimes expectations for breastfeeding to be a "wonderful experience" also set women up for failure. To me, breastfeeding is an okay experience--but to hear some women speak of their experiences it would
make a new mom expect that she will be experiencing waves of endorphins every time she feeds her baby. While this may be the case with some women, it certainly wasn't the case with me. I breastfeed my daughter now because she cannot tolerate formula so I don't have much choice. I am stubborn and that's what keeps me at it. But, I don't walk around feeling like I have the right to speak into other womens' lives and judge whether they've made a good enough effort with breastfeeding or not--that's their business. I also don't take any particular pride or pats on the back because I'm breastfeeding. I can, however, feel a sense of accomplishment that I made it through another day or week even though every day is a struggle.

In our modern world is it really fair to put that burden on mothers? After all the other pressures they have that they must breastfeed? I question this a lot and I can empathize with mothers who choose not to breastfeed.

 

[Koan]

Gataloca, I had a similar experience when I was pumping at work. Mondays were my lowest yeild and by Friday I was pumping more. I figured that what I was pumping on Mondays, after my supply had the weekend to regulate to my baby's nursing needs, was what my baby required. I would just continue with what you're doing- feeding him on cue whenever you're with him and continue with your pumping. It's hard work, you're doing great!

I dunno...when my child shows signs that they're not into breastfeeding I'm not going to chase them around and force them to feed because according to some study it's too soon for them to stop. I think that's silly, personally but I know others who are very much in support of it.

Of course not. You can't force a child to BF. Just like you can't force a mother to BF.

The article from Kelly Mom seems to use circular reasoning by saying:

So, how do we know a baby before 1-year-old is not self-weaning. According to that article it's because children who self-wean are typically well over a year old." Which tells us nothing. Every child is different. Every situation is different and just because your child didn't truly self-wean at an early age doesn't mean mine won't.

Naturally there is a range of ages at which a child self-weans.

However, true self-weaning at under a year is very, very uncommon. The Kellymom article gave many reasons why we may misinterpret our baby's cues and think they are weaning, and how these factors may affect your BFing relationship. Weaning is typically a gradual process. Dr. Katherine Dettwyler has done a lot of research on weaning if you're interested in learning more.

 

[thanka2]

Of course not. You can't force a child to BF. Just like you can't force a mother to BF.

Then, this makes no sense to me. So, if the child isn't self-weaning but refuses to breastfeed because he/she isn't that interested in breastfeeding in early toddlerhood then how, apart from pumping, does the mother maintain her milk supply in order to keep breastfeeding him/her and not fall into the "mother-led" weaning group? I've seen some bfing mothers chase their toddlers around in an attempt to make them bfeed when they were clearly not into it because the mothers were worried about the milk supply issue.

 

[Lali07]

So T2, if a baby 'self-weans' at say 9 or 10 months, then would you offer a bottle or sippy cup? I would assume so.. If a baby is still drinking milk from a bottle or sippy cup, and the mother is able to breastfeed, then thats a no-brainer to me.

I definitely did not find childbirth to be wonderful and spiritual like yourself, it was painful and was a little scary at times, but I still have amazing confidence in a mother's ability to birth her baby, and would encourage any mother-to-be to give natural birth a try, like I will for my next baby.

I found breastfeeding difficult and at times painful at first, I didn't have the problems you had thankfully, and I do enjoy breastfeeding. My main motivator is not for myself but rather my baby.

It doesn't make any sense to me to tout the benefits of natural birth but not put the same stock in breastfeeding. Like I have said before, how a baby is fed is likely to have more overall health effects than how a baby is delivered..

Natural birth = the biological norm
Breastfeeding = the biological norm

Doesn't always go down like that, and thats fine, but I still don't get your one-sidedness.. Perhaps you know more about birth than breastfeeding - the health benefits not necessarily just the process.

 

[thanka2]

So T2, if a baby 'self-weans' at say 9 or 10 months, then would you offer a bottle or sippy cup? I would assume so.. If a baby is still drinking milk from a bottle or sippy cup, and the mother is able to breastfeed, then thats a no-brainer to me.

I'm not really sure what you mean here. But, my thoughts are isn't 'self-weaning' about the child's desire to breastfeed or not--not about the child's ability to breastfeed. Children are physically able to breastfeed until a much older age but whether they're interested or not is a different question. Anyway, again, I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I definitely did not find childbirth to be wonderful and spiritual like yourself, it was painful and was a little scary at times, but I still have amazing confidence in a mother's ability to birth her baby, and would encourage any mother-to-be to give natural birth a try, like I will for my next baby.

My first birth was not wonderful at all--it was painful (super painful--back labor--no relief for 43 hours) and very scary at times but it was the best choice for me. My second birth was much better but I also had experience on my side and I was much more educated the second time around. It was still incredibly painful but not a fearful experience.

I found breastfeeding difficult and at times painful at first, I didn't have the problems you had thankfully, and I do enjoy breastfeeding. My main motivator is not for myself but rather my baby.

I think that you've hit a key statement here when you say "my main motivator is not for myself but rather my baby." In fact, that means we have the exact same motivation. If i was breastfeeding for myself then I would definitely not even give it a go. But there is a balance to be struck because I do think that breastfeeding is a relationship which takes two partners--baby and mama and is influenced by many factors. It's far to simple to say "those who breastfeed" are selfless and "doing it for their baby" and those who don't breastfeed are "selfish" and "doing it for themselves." If both sides of the equation don't add up, in my experience, the experience is not good.

It doesn't make any sense to me to tout the benefits of natural birth but not put the same stock in breastfeeding. Like I have said before, how a baby is fed is likely to have more overall health effects than how a baby is delivered..

To me, breastfeeding brings with it an entirely different set of dynamics that is altogether different from childbirth. I have never "not touted the benefits" of breastfeeding. I believe breastfeeding has many benefits but I think I have a more tempered view of the reality of breastfeeding that many advocates simply choose to downplay or overlook. For me, giving birth is mostly a mental process--one's body will do what one wants if one has the mental/emotional part under control. For breastfeeding, it is more of a physical process. The roadblocks I've come up against in breastfeeding were and are physical--not mental. There's a lot more to work out when it comes to breastfeeding so what I'm speaking of is the real-life practical difficulties women like myself deal with. My experience is not everyone else's experience. Also, when it comes to breastfeeding there is another individual to be concerned with--the personality and ability of the baby as well as any difficulties the baby has play a big part. While giving birth my baby's personality and will had very little to do with how well I was able to give birth. Different dynamics.

Natural birth = the biological norm
Breastfeeding = the biological norm

Sure, I don't think anyone is disputing this here.

Doesn't always go down like that, and thats fine, but I still don't get your one-sidedness.. Perhaps you know more about birth than breastfeeding - the health benefits not necessarily just the process.

It's not one-sidedness any more than your approach is. You advocate breastfeeding strongly (possibly because you've had an overall positive experience) while I advocate med-free birthing strongly (possibly because I've had an overall positive experience). I doubt that I know any less about breastfeeding than I do about giving birth--I did, afterall, as I've detailed to you elsewhere, do my utmost for 6 months to work through the problems that arose--I may even know some things about breastfeeding you don't because of my experience and what I had to go through--things that most breastfeeding women who breastfeed without major complications would never have any reason to know about breastfeeding. I don't think either of us has the corner on the market of knowledge about giving birth or breastfeeding. I don't think you can discount the process of breastfeeding because the process is what makes the health benefits possible. It's easy to say "just focus on the benefits" if you've never really, truly suffered because of your determination to breastfeed. It's one thing for breastfeeding to "be painful sometimes" but 6 months of literal suffering is unacceptable for me.

I think the crux of the matter is that I'm saying you must "walk a mile" in the shoes of a woman like myself to actually understand but in the case of breastfeeding, everyone is biased by their own experience. Likewise, the same is true of pregnancy and childbirth.

With that, I think I'll take leave of this discussion. We could talk around in circles like this for days. I accept your stance and your right to it.

 

[Lali07]

I don't think that a young baby or toddler is capable of making important decisions when it comes to what it best. Parents must use their knowledge and wisdom to make such decisions for them. For this reason I wouldn't allow my baby to 'choose' formula over breast milk. I would draw the line at forcing them, as this is not in my nature, I believe in more gentle and sensitive parenting. I would however do everything in my power to encourage them to continue drinking breast milk. If this means making the feeding environment calm and pleasant, singing, rocking, story time, or whatever.

Of all of my family and friends who have or are breastfeeding toddlers, none of them are running after them trying to shove a boob in their mouth. Because the experience is made pleasant, the toddlers usually ask for it. Even if its only once or twice a day, the child is receiving essential fatty acids not found in formula (aids in nerve growth esp. in the brain which is growing as fast as it ever will at this age) and antibodies for immunity.

We've decided that when our son is older, for example two to three years old, when his immune system is more mature and the most critical stage of nerve growth has passed, we will take the 'don't offer but don't refuse' route.

If I did have serious problems breastfeeding which could not be resolved (most, but not all, can be), and had to choose the formula option, then that would be that. Cest La Vie. But I would still be an advocate for it, encouraging others to try. I doubt I would be so negative about it. Just like I am still an advocate for natural birth even though I ended up using pain medication.

Cheers,

Lali

 

[Sarah_Lotus]

Dear Gataloca,

It sounds like you are giving him more milk in the bottle than he needs. Have you tried giving the milk in a cup rather than a bottle? You will probably find that he drinks less from the cup, maybe more like the amount he drinks from the breast.

Remember that drinking from a bottle is like going to a buffet whereas drinking from the breast is like sitting down for a meal at home. One option is to pump less at work rather than working hard at increasing your supply when your baby is at an age to be cutting down the amount of milk he drinks.

If your helper finds that he is still hungry and there isn?t enough milk then I?d consider giving more solids rather than formula milk. My idea of good nutrition is, ?Good nutrition means eating a well-balanced and varied diet of foods in as close to their natural state as possible.? Formula is the world?s most processed food!

Don?t worry about having enough milk when you are together - you will. Many mothers have stopped expressing at work by the time the baby is one year old but still have enough to feed the baby when they are together. This is because the breast works on the replacement theory. If you take milk out your breast will replace it.

There is a difference between a baby weaning from the breast because he is ready to more on to the next stage of his life and choosing bottles over the breast.

We usually encourage mothers to avoid introducing bottles until the baby is at least four to six weeks old as until the milk supply is well established we find that the breast just can not compete with the very fast flow from the bottle.

But even if the baby is older the breast may have difficulties competing with the bottle?s fast flow. This often happens around the starting solids time as the mother?s milk flow slows. This is noticed especially for a baby who is more interested in the milk than the comfort and for babies who really like solids. The more solids the baby takes the less milk he takes ? the calories the baby eats usually stays about the same before and after solids are introduced. This is often mistaken for the baby self weaning but in fact it is showing a preference for the bottle.

True self weaning occurs when the baby no longer wants the breast or the bottle. Most studies show this to be somewhere between two and four years of age.

SARAH

Sarah Hung IBCLC
www.lotuslactation.com

 

[thanka2]

If this means making the feeding environment calm and pleasant, singing, rocking, story time, or whatever.

This assumes that you are a SAHM that can have the luxury of sitting at home making the environment what it is so your child can feed properly.

Of all of my family and friends who have or are breastfeeding toddlers, none of them are running after them trying to shove a boob in their mouth. Because the experience is made pleasant, the toddlers usually ask for it. Even if its only once or twice a day, the child is receiving essential fatty acids not found in formula (aids in nerve growth esp. in the brain which is growing as fast as it ever will at this age) and antibodies for immunity.

That's great--but I have friends who do run around trying to shove their breast in their toddler's mouth while their toddler tries to struggle free. That's fine for them but I won't be doing that.

We've decided that when our son is older, for example two to three years old, when his immune system is more mature and the most critical stage of nerve growth has passed, we will take the 'don't offer but don't refuse' route.

Awesome. You say this is your first child, right? So, you haven't actually made it to the toddler stage. I'd be interested to hear what your experience is later on.

If I did have serious problems breastfeeding which could not be resolved (most, but not all, can be), and had to choose the formula option, then that would be that. Cest La Vie. But I would still be an advocate for it, encouraging others to try. I doubt I would be so negative about it. Just like I am still an advocate for natural birth even though I ended up using pain medication.

You are the one who keeps pinning this "being negative" thing upon me. That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I could keep labeling you over and over again as "far too optimistic." What good does that do? It's just a silly label.

I am being realistic and real about my experience which was a negative one and I do believe the points I bring up are valid, legitimate points that need to be considered by women who are breastfeeding. Basically, I see myself as the "other side of the coin" and I think women, if given the right information, are intelligent enough to make decisions for themselves--both when it comes to breastfeeding and to giving birth.

My problem is that when it comes to giving birth, a lot of the information is withheld and downplayed. When it comes to breastfeeding, the negative aspects are often glossed over as well. And you've mentioned, local doctors don't give accurate support or information for women who do want to breastfeed. But, personally, I'm removed from that because I don't put much stock in what local doctors say anyway.

I am all for being open about the real experience and what is available in both cases. And I believe I have the right to tell my story as it is because I am certainly not the only woman who has suffered because of breastfeeding only to realize later it would have been better for me, personally and for my child if I had gone to formula sooner. So, for the women who have my story but labored under guilt because breastfeeding was not the best option for them, I want to say that I've been there and done that and it's okay.

Part of the problem I have with "lactivists" is that when I was in the throes of breastfeeding problems with my first child, along with the help they offered (some was helpful, some was not) they also dished up a big portion of guilt and unrealistic expectations for my particular situation. So, instead of just supporting me as a mother they pursued this breastfeeding thing with religious fervor to the point that left me feeling even more isolated.

 

[Gataloca]

Dear Gataloca,

It sounds like you are giving him more milk in the bottle than he needs. Have you tried giving the milk in a cup rather than a bottle? You will probably find that he drinks less from the cup, maybe more like the amount he drinks from the breast.

Remember that drinking from a bottle is like going to a buffet whereas drinking from the breast is like sitting down for a meal at home. One option is to pump less at work rather than working hard at increasing your supply when your baby is at an age to be cutting down the amount of milk he drinks.

If your helper finds that he is still hungry and there isn’t enough milk then I’d consider giving more solids rather than formula milk. My idea of good nutrition is, “Good nutrition means eating a well-balanced and varied diet of foods in as close to their natural state as possible.” Formula is the world’s most processed food!

Don’t worry about having enough milk when you are together - you will. Many mothers have stopped expressing at work by the time the baby is one year old but still have enough to feed the baby when they are together. This is because the breast works on the replacement theory. If you take milk out your breast will replace it.

There is a difference between a baby weaning from the breast because he is ready to more on to the next stage of his life and choosing bottles over the breast.

We usually encourage mothers to avoid introducing bottles until the baby is at least four to six weeks old as until the milk supply is well established we find that the breast just can not compete with the very fast flow from the bottle.

But even if the baby is older the breast may have difficulties competing with the bottle’s fast flow. This often happens around the starting solids time as the mother’s milk flow slows. This is noticed especially for a baby who is more interested in the milk than the comfort and for babies who really like solids. The more solids the baby takes the less milk he takes – the calories the baby eats usually stays about the same before and after solids are introduced. This is often mistaken for the baby self weaning but in fact it is showing a preference for the bottle.

True self weaning occurs when the baby no longer wants the breast or the bottle. Most studies show this to be somewhere between two and four years of age.

SARAH

Sarah Hung IBCLC
www.lotuslactation.com

Thanks a lot, Sarah.

I wasn't really sure how much milk I should give my baby, specially because I don't know how much he drinks when he sucks directly on my breasts. And since my baby is a little bit underweight (probably around 10 percentile or less), I was concerned that he might not have enough (specially because he usually can finish the 2 bottles of 6-7oz milk that I can hardly pump and save during the day).

I have a question regarding using cups to feed the milk... isn't the flow from a sippy cup sprout faster than a bottle teat? I have never tried giving milk from a sippy cup.. but when my baby drinks water from it, he sometime sucks more than what he can swallow and end up spitting it....