BTEC - Business and Technology Education Council qualifications at ESF

[Sarah_Lotus]

Dear Quasimother,

Thank you for your good wishes. I think we are in agreement that very few children at an international school in Hong Kong, whether taking IB or BTECs, are average. As all the parents I speak to are very involved in their children’s education and full of support. This is born out by the excellent results the children graduating from these schools achieve.

Boris,

I think when you are discussing my son you are not taking into account that A level study was not open to him in Hong Kong. He didn’t have the full range of choices he would have had if he had been in England. In West Island School there are only two choices: IB or BTEC.

Had WIS offered A levels he would have jumped at the chance to study Double Maths and Physics and I believe the teachers would have also recommended this for him. But he didn’t have that chance. So he took BTECs.

You equate my son to someone you describe as “expectations of NAT CERT”. I know nothing about the NAT CERT. He is taking BTECs not NAT CERT and he’s doing it in 2011 not in the last century.

Now, I would appreciate it if you would stop making wild statements about my son’s abilities when you know nothing about him or his expected grades.

And as I said before what he actually achieves is not important in this discussion as much as what he is offered to study at university. Because whatever my son manages will not affect what the next child can do but the university offers are likely to be the same.

My son is actually in England this week visiting universities. His favourite so far is Leeds Uni. The man showing him around said with a DD in the BTEC and an A in the A level Maths they couldn’t refuse him. So I do think that an 18 year old can get into university with BTECs with the correct grades.

SARAH

 

[TheQuasimother]

Point 4) A level Maths. Yes indeed, anyone taking A level maths should be expected to gain a B. HOWEVER .... what you fail to mention is that this is students WHO ARE CHOSEN by their teachers ... in school ... to do that exam. This is NOT the case here. the student was ( by himself, his parents and his teachers ) not selected for an academic track. So ... your observations are a moot point at best. As you are well aware teachers will only recommend students who are capable of success. They do not promote aspirations. You are remiss not to point that out.

As Sarah has pointed out, the academic track does not exist. It IS a flaw of the entire change in system by ESF - To offer two spectrums of extreme (in my point of view).

A Level Maths has not been designed for just the cream of the crop. Teachers don't get to choose their students or recommend them. I went to a school where students pick their subjects! And these days, schools who realise the limitations of whatever system they adhere to will support external learning.

You must speak from experience being in a very rigid system or have students attend a very rigid system, even if they attend a local HK school, they all have options and choices! Where do you get of trying to tell teachers and parents as a second career fella what we would know and what we wouldn't? I've done my yards. You didn't even experience the A Levels. It's not an elite examination system just for geniuses or the 'academically sound' as you deemed. I've seen Tom, Dick and Harry ace A Level Maths. I didn't even have to attend my classes to get THE grade nor hire a tutor and I'm not genius or in the top percentile of the system! My current cohort of students pick their own subjects. As long as they've met the minimum requirement i.e. Pass in Maths, they are allowed to do it. Try working on a ten-year series regularly enough and you'll ace it! Everyone knows this! Maths is all about practice! Doesn't take a genius. Teachers don't have to choose their students. Teachers KNOW this! To ace it, it's simply, UNDERSTAND then PRACTICE! DUH! It's not rocket Science.

Your perception of the A Levels as meant for the academically sound is skewed. Anyone can do the A Levels and pick a subject and ace it. It's been seen and done many times around. As someone who didn't get that experience, and just limited to experience to a limited crop of students from tutoring, how would you really know how hard/easy it really is? Or what the real wider scope of the system is?

You didn't experience the system or was part of that system, you are NOT in that system. You work on the fringe of the system. And from what I can gather, a recent convert. So your experience is limited to that fringe of exposure. Please do not come up high and mighty and tell the lot of us who are parents and educators actually experiencing the system on a daily basis how hard/easy it is for the kids or who can or cannot succeed.

And FYI, I do not have a personal relationship with Sarah, I've met her during a hospital stay. I'm just astounded that a person who has NEVER had the experience of the A Level examinations, doesn't have a child who is in the system, doesn't work within the system can have such a high and mighty stand over the rest of us who are. Being a private tutor to one or two or four isn't the same. You haven't done this for years. You don't know the system and who can or cannot handle it. You don't see the larger picture.

The A Levels, Maths or otherwise, not designed just for geniuses. Any exam smart person can ace it. There is a degree of predictability to it! Don't even need a private tutor. DUH! You can go on and on about it. But anyone who has experienced it first hand will tell you what I say is true: It doesn't take a genius to ace an A Level exam (whatever the subject). To pass, you don't even have to do the work! To ace, simply practice! practice! practice! It's not about aptitude. It's about attitude and a lot of exercises.

Unfortunately, when you went to school you did not have the aptitude and right now, you don't have the attitude or basic understanding of the system to help a child succeed at the A Levels.

 

[Sarah_Lotus]

My son has received answers from the universities he applied through UCAS (a maximum of five).

He applied to study a MSc in Civil Engineering at the following universities:

Bradford University - asked for a grade B in A Level mathematics and a total 300 UCAS points. The works out as Distinction, Merit in the Engineering BTEC and a B in A Level Mathematics or Merit, Merit in Engineering BTEC and A* at A level Mathematics.

Coventry University – asked for 30 points in IB! My son contacted the university and explain he wasn’t taking the IB but BTECs and A Levels. They then offered Distinction, Distinction, Merit in the triple BTEC. He again contacted them and explained what he was taking and they told him they’d re-investigate and send another offer – which we are still waiting for. But to be honest I’m not impressed with the person handling the offers as she doesn’t seem to know what she is doing!

Leeds University – asked for Distinction, Distinction in the Engineering BTEC and a B in A Level Mathematics.

Liverpool University – unsuccessful

Newcastle University - asked for Distinction, Distinction in the Engineering BTEC, Distinction in Sport Science BTEC and an A in A Level Mathematics.

I don’t want to get into another discussion about whether or not my son can obtain these results as time will answer this.

But I’d like to point out that it is possible to get university offers from good universities in the UK when studying BTECs, especially when backed up with A level Mathematics.

(The Guardian University Ranking for Civil Engineering 2012:
Leeds University = 16th, Newcastle University = 17th, Coventry University = 21st, Liverpool University = 31st and Bradford University = 32nd,
University guide 2012: Engineering: civil | Education | guardian.co.uk )

 

[Boris]

Bradford University - asked for a grade B in A Level mathematics and a total 300 UCAS points. The works out as Distinction, Merit in the Engineering BTEC and a B in A Level Mathematics or Merit, Merit in Engineering BTEC and A* at A level Mathematics.,

I don't see your claim being true in the references I am looking at: (UCAS - Tariff tables) I quote BTEC Nationals (NQF) because you describe your son as taking the National Cert. The maximum he could get is 200 points. If he took the Diploma then that is another matter AS I HAVE ALREADY STATED HERE.

MAYBE YOU MIGHT CARE TO POST A LINK TO YOUR SOURCE?

ALSO .......... I post this
National Qualifications Framework (NQF) | University of Bolton
Because it nicely lays out how UK Uni judge various qualifications. Your boy is at NQF level 2 which is lowly or maybe a 3 (it's ambiguous). A Foundation degree appears ( along with BTEC HND which I hold ) at NQF 5 with a BSc @ NQF6. I have degree points because of my additional A levels.

Looking at Leeds Uni School of Engineering site, for a MSc they require a MINIMUM 2.2 and mostly 2.1 BSc .............. so excuse me if I am somewhat skeptical (sic) on how you might have represented what course you son is doing. I cannot for the life of me see how a University might accept a BTEC Nat Cert for a Masters Degree. REALLY??????? Now a BTEC HND at DD or DDM and a good A level .. OK. So maybe thats what they are assuming.

 

[Sarah_Lotus]

Boris, I am not sure what I have said that makes you think I don’t know what I’m talking about. I am really not in the habit of talking about things I don’t know and fully understand.

And in case anyone else thinks that my son, myself or my son’s teachers are stupid enough to lie when applying to university, I can assure you that we know exactly what qualifications my son is taking even if Boris can’t get his head around them.

If you read the website Boris so kindly provided, UCAS - Tariff tables, and read it more carefully you will see under the title BTEC Nationals (NQF) that a DD is equivalent to 240 UCAS traffic points and MM is 160. B at A level is 100 points and A* at A level is 140.

Then with simple arithmetic we get:
Distinction, Merit, B = 120 + 80 + 100 = 300 points
Merit, Merit, A* = 80 + 80 + 140 = 300 points.
I do worry about Boris' ability to tutor mathematics when his arithmetic skills are so lacking.

When you look at the website from the University of Bolton that Boris provided it states quite clearly:
NQF Level 3 qualifications: A-level; BTEC National Diploma, Certificate and Award;…
So you can see that BTECs and A levels are considered the same level. This is something that I have been saying all along. It is something that I think everyone, with the exception of Boris, believed me when I started answering in this thread. What would have been gained by my lying is something I just don’t understand.

When my son visited universities last October he discussed with the lecturers he met what would be the best course for him to apply to. All suggested that he apply for the MEng course. (Sorry in my last post I should have said MEng not MSc.)

The MEng course is a four year course and the BEng course is a three year course. Students have to decide at the end of the second year if they want to choose the MEng or the BEng. But the lecturers said it was better to apply for the MEng and then change to the BEng – something to do with getting grants and scholarships. So my son duly applied for the MEng.

Indeed on Leeds University UCAS website, UCAS course search, it states quite clearly:

University of Leeds
Civil and Environmental Engineering
3 year full-time Degree, 4 year full-time Degree

Many MSC, MEng and MA courses are now accepting students with A levels. My niece is studying an MSc in Biology and she entered with A levels rather than with a BSc. The difference is the number of years you study. Enter with A levels it is a four year course and with a BSc it is a one year course.

I have been a member of this forum since it started (and for Skeptical Boris – I posted under a different name until I changed jobs last March – ask Rani if you don’t believe me). I have never lied and I don’t think that anyone else has either – what would be the point?

Boris, I do not know what you are doing in your new company but if you are advising students on getting into university please get up to date with the courses and their requirements and don’t make assumptions based on how you got into university – we are in a new century now and things are different.

SARAH