ESF goes by the UK curriculum. You may find more information from the following site:
National Curriculum
National Curriculum
Brand ESF - What is it?
- Thread starter testuser
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Very interesting post Shri. I too have contacted the board about questions but got an immediate response...it directed me to the school principal!!! And yet my question was about board policies in respect to meeting the needs of children of all levels in the classroom. Basically I was told it was a question for the principal of the school whose catchment we live in. But I seriously question this as I believe (naively?) that policies should be set board wide and followed equally in all schools. The board was very quick to pass us off to the principal and was not interested in speaking to us at all.
When we spoke to the principal she indicated they would like to meet my childs needs but there was no guarantee!!! I was truly shocked and in the end we felt we would be fighting every year to have our childs needs met so have decided to withdraw our application from ESF (this is for the second child, at the moment my other child is still in ESF).
After my oldest daughters first year at ESF I was very surprised to learn how different each school is run. As some other posters have mentioned there are variances in PE, mandarin, music etc., but also it seems that some school cater to advanced learners but other schools do not. There is also a variance in how much homework children get between schools. Bus fees are caclculated differently at each school, for instance one school you pay based on which stop you get on for each route and at another school it is a flat fee regardless how many or how few stops away from school you are. I realize that some of these things are minor and could be considered petty but at the end of the day we pay the same school fees so one would hope there might be more consistency.
I certainly agree that a teacher can have a massive impact on the success of teaching to all levels but when there are 30 kids in the class there is only so much that can be done and without board policies there is no guarantee and as such some schools are "better" than others and yet we are all paying the same fees.
I have been told by a 30 year ESF veteran that there are policies but if they can avoid adhering to them they can avoid spending money. Same old thing, it is about bums on seats.
Since it is the cheapest international school in HK (thanks to government subsidies) they can pretty much guarantee those bums on seats because not everyone can pay international school fees. We still have no idea what we are going to do about schooling for our youngest but I would love to challenge ESF further but not sure I am up for a battle year in and year out...
good luck getting answers, will stay tuned to see what you learn!
When we spoke to the principal she indicated they would like to meet my childs needs but there was no guarantee!!! I was truly shocked and in the end we felt we would be fighting every year to have our childs needs met so have decided to withdraw our application from ESF (this is for the second child, at the moment my other child is still in ESF).
After my oldest daughters first year at ESF I was very surprised to learn how different each school is run. As some other posters have mentioned there are variances in PE, mandarin, music etc., but also it seems that some school cater to advanced learners but other schools do not. There is also a variance in how much homework children get between schools. Bus fees are caclculated differently at each school, for instance one school you pay based on which stop you get on for each route and at another school it is a flat fee regardless how many or how few stops away from school you are. I realize that some of these things are minor and could be considered petty but at the end of the day we pay the same school fees so one would hope there might be more consistency.
I certainly agree that a teacher can have a massive impact on the success of teaching to all levels but when there are 30 kids in the class there is only so much that can be done and without board policies there is no guarantee and as such some schools are "better" than others and yet we are all paying the same fees.
I have been told by a 30 year ESF veteran that there are policies but if they can avoid adhering to them they can avoid spending money. Same old thing, it is about bums on seats.
Since it is the cheapest international school in HK (thanks to government subsidies) they can pretty much guarantee those bums on seats because not everyone can pay international school fees. We still have no idea what we are going to do about schooling for our youngest but I would love to challenge ESF further but not sure I am up for a battle year in and year out...
good luck getting answers, will stay tuned to see what you learn!
I don't think the schools should all be the same. If you had all policies coming form the board, then you would get parents complaining that the schools had no autonomy to meet their individual/special needs.
Their student populations are different, with immensely different backgrounds and language skills from school to school and class to class.
Schools can only do their best - no school in the world will guarantee that a child's needs are met 100%. The ESF works very hard to aquire more funding from the government to get more funds for special needs: they already do three times as much as any other school system in HK.
The point about staff vacancies is laughable - if you cannot find staff, you cannot find staff. They advertise all over the world. Probably the only way to attract more people to apply is to raise the salary being offered - how many of you would like your fees raised again?
Did anyone stop to think that threads like these play into the governments hands? They would love any excuse to stop the subvention. Then you would see a reduction in service for more money.
The bus companies vary from school to school. The only way to ensure consistent business practice would be for the ESF to buy and run it's own bus fleet. Who would like to come up with the funds for that?
I've never come across a school in real life (over three continents) that provide the kinds of curriculum documents that Shri is demanding. There is such a thing as being overly prescriptive - espeically outside of a subject like maths. I agree that there needs to be a minimum standard, but it's more important to set achieveable goals for students, and this relies more on a concept of progress than one of minimum standards. If a child cannot meet the standards, are they a 'failure'? Students have asynchronous development, and this needs to be reflected in school practice.
And quite frankly, at some point you either trust the system, or remove your children. ESF only hires qualified, experienced staff; they have a very high rate of university entrance; they offer good extra-curricular activities; and the fees are reasonable. So the meet their end game requirements for an affordable fee.
Seriously - a little less whinging and some more acknowledgement of the good job they do would not go astray. Every parent is an expert on their child, but you are not experts on how best to educate a group of chidren with varyng levels of academic and social skills.
Their student populations are different, with immensely different backgrounds and language skills from school to school and class to class.
Schools can only do their best - no school in the world will guarantee that a child's needs are met 100%. The ESF works very hard to aquire more funding from the government to get more funds for special needs: they already do three times as much as any other school system in HK.
The point about staff vacancies is laughable - if you cannot find staff, you cannot find staff. They advertise all over the world. Probably the only way to attract more people to apply is to raise the salary being offered - how many of you would like your fees raised again?
Did anyone stop to think that threads like these play into the governments hands? They would love any excuse to stop the subvention. Then you would see a reduction in service for more money.
The bus companies vary from school to school. The only way to ensure consistent business practice would be for the ESF to buy and run it's own bus fleet. Who would like to come up with the funds for that?
I've never come across a school in real life (over three continents) that provide the kinds of curriculum documents that Shri is demanding. There is such a thing as being overly prescriptive - espeically outside of a subject like maths. I agree that there needs to be a minimum standard, but it's more important to set achieveable goals for students, and this relies more on a concept of progress than one of minimum standards. If a child cannot meet the standards, are they a 'failure'? Students have asynchronous development, and this needs to be reflected in school practice.
And quite frankly, at some point you either trust the system, or remove your children. ESF only hires qualified, experienced staff; they have a very high rate of university entrance; they offer good extra-curricular activities; and the fees are reasonable. So the meet their end game requirements for an affordable fee.
Seriously - a little less whinging and some more acknowledgement of the good job they do would not go astray. Every parent is an expert on their child, but you are not experts on how best to educate a group of chidren with varyng levels of academic and social skills.
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HappyV - You're so easily wound up. Let me guess, you're an ESF teacher? Your response is classic .. blame the parents who might bring up problems, rather than a system that is not responding.
Anyways, I really do need to thank you for reminding me that the ESF still has some govt oversight. I guess I now need to find the appropriate person in the Education department to voice my concerns to and to forward my emails which have not been unanswered by the ESF Center.
By the way, it is whinging parents AND the government which were responsible for cleaning up the mess that the ESF was left in, simply because a few people were running it as thei fiefdom. Remember those days?
Next, it is up to the educational system to go into a mode where they have to convince their parents that they know what that they're doing AND they're putting their best foot foward when it comes to educating the kids. Right now I'm not convinced.
>> I've never come across a school in real life (over three
>> continents) that provide the kinds of curriculum
>> documents that Shri is demanding.
A good start would be SOME documentation. Are you trying to tell me that "This page is under construction" is a professional response to a parent who is looking for more information on what levels his child should be educated at? I merely pointed out the levels of documentation that are available. Right now I have NOTHING.
Are you the type that goes out at buys a new TV and is happy when the sales guy tells you that it comes with a manual and that the manual will be ready and sent to you in a year or two or might not even be sent to you?
Consumers have the right to be informed. As parents the ESF must keep the parents informed.
>> if you cannot find staff, you cannot find staff.
Not when you're running a business and education is big business, not a charity.
Shri,
How laughable that because someone disagrees with you, they must work for the ESF. I do not work for the ESF - I am not emplyed by an ESF school, or by ESF Head Office.
Take your concerns to the Education Bureau by all means.
Have you asked your children's teacher for curriculum planning for the year? Have they refused to give it to you? Have youtaken your concerns to the Year Level or Subject Co ordinator and been refused? Have you taken your concerns to the Principal and been refused? The EB would want to see the process start at the 'bottom' and work its way up.
Education is NOT a business - otherwise they would just hire whoever they could get. Do you think there aren't lots of applicants for every Mandarin teaching job? Do you want someone with sub par English/teaching/communication skills in front of your children? The problem is partly that the ESF now has a centralised system for recruitment, which is simply not capable of picking up the nuances of an individual teacher's experience and abilities. So that is one very real way in which the process has been streamlines and possibly (probably) made cheaper, but may not be as effective in the long run.
The clean up process - well, yes it seems to have been needed in terms of governmental structure. As far as I can tel it hasn;t made the blindest bit of difference to how the schools go abou their day to day teaching. So now we have the office moving to Tai Koo Shing, we have schools being moved around, no reduction in fees (quite the opposite, in fact) and as far as you have seen, not really any more acountability. Has the clean up resulted in you getting answers from the board? Nope, seems not.
It begs the question - if you are so dissatisfied with the education your children are receiving, why don't you remove them? You've been whining about this for weeks and weeks and weeks. Can we assume that you will be placing your children at a different school for August?
Have you ever heard the term 'helicopter parent'??
As far as the onus of trust goes - ESF's educational results speak pretty well for themselves. Do you trust that result? If not, why not? Is your child falling behind the class?
I really don't understand the need for all the documentation you are asking for. Just looj over your children's classwork - that should give you a pretty strong idea of content and required standards.
How laughable that because someone disagrees with you, they must work for the ESF. I do not work for the ESF - I am not emplyed by an ESF school, or by ESF Head Office.
Take your concerns to the Education Bureau by all means.
Have you asked your children's teacher for curriculum planning for the year? Have they refused to give it to you? Have youtaken your concerns to the Year Level or Subject Co ordinator and been refused? Have you taken your concerns to the Principal and been refused? The EB would want to see the process start at the 'bottom' and work its way up.
Education is NOT a business - otherwise they would just hire whoever they could get. Do you think there aren't lots of applicants for every Mandarin teaching job? Do you want someone with sub par English/teaching/communication skills in front of your children? The problem is partly that the ESF now has a centralised system for recruitment, which is simply not capable of picking up the nuances of an individual teacher's experience and abilities. So that is one very real way in which the process has been streamlines and possibly (probably) made cheaper, but may not be as effective in the long run.
The clean up process - well, yes it seems to have been needed in terms of governmental structure. As far as I can tel it hasn;t made the blindest bit of difference to how the schools go abou their day to day teaching. So now we have the office moving to Tai Koo Shing, we have schools being moved around, no reduction in fees (quite the opposite, in fact) and as far as you have seen, not really any more acountability. Has the clean up resulted in you getting answers from the board? Nope, seems not.
It begs the question - if you are so dissatisfied with the education your children are receiving, why don't you remove them? You've been whining about this for weeks and weeks and weeks. Can we assume that you will be placing your children at a different school for August?
Have you ever heard the term 'helicopter parent'??
As far as the onus of trust goes - ESF's educational results speak pretty well for themselves. Do you trust that result? If not, why not? Is your child falling behind the class?
I really don't understand the need for all the documentation you are asking for. Just looj over your children's classwork - that should give you a pretty strong idea of content and required standards.
My most sincere apologies then. Just assumed, given your defensive and apologist stance towards ESF.
Yes, and I have some information. Still not adequate.
If you had read the original post, rather than get all emotional, you would have figured that my problem is mainly with the ESF which is not able to give us a minimum standard that all their schools operate at.
What is the ESF Brand?
Do all schools produce kids at the same level of education?
What is that standard?
Will Kennedy school kids be able to transfer easily to Quarry Bay for example and be at the same level as the kids there?
This MUST be documented as it then creates a basic structure for parents to compare and judge if the ESF schools meet their standards and expectations BEFORE they start investigating these schools.
I'm going to ask you ONE SIMPLE question .. JUST ONE QUESTION.
As a parent about to move to Hong Kong, do you think that this page gives you adequate information about what the ESF has as its minimum standard of education for primary schools?
English Schools Foundation - Primary
Does it give parents enough information to see if their kids school is operating at the same level as the other ESF schools and at the minimum ESF standards?
I am all for dealing with individual schools for individual issues (infact I am .. and I am not happy about the school's responses and am pursuing it through my own contacts).
I agree that the website needs work. I do not, however, believe that one page of a website is a fair reflection of any school.
However, if I were outside of HK and moving here with kids, I would either be doing a trip prior to the move to check out schools 'in the flesh' or I would be on forums like this to hear what residents had to say.
I wouldn;t base my decision on any website - not matter how fancy.
I should also point out that all the sections apart from primary, offer a clear explanation of the curriculum and learning stages.
Also - it may have to do with the IBO. I don;t know exactly when the ESF got their PYP accreditation, but this may have something to do with it. The know that the IB is pretty strict about the context in which the words MYP, IB Diploma and PYP etc can be used.
And whether or not a child could swop from one school to the other would depend entirely on the child. As I said before, children develop at different rates in different subjects, and it's very difficult to ascertain whether a child who is 'behind' is so due to the teaching mtehod, home support, ability, effort etc etc. That is where parents need to be aware, which is what you are trying to be.
I still don't understand where the concern comes from. If you are in HK already, which you are, and your child may be changing schools, go and visit the school(s) involved.
Quite frankly, there are enough local children (and by local, I mean those resident in HK, irrespective of ethnicity/nationality) on the wait list for ESF schools without me being too concerned over people moving into the city. The problem there is with lack of appropriate places, which is another issue entirely.
However, if I were outside of HK and moving here with kids, I would either be doing a trip prior to the move to check out schools 'in the flesh' or I would be on forums like this to hear what residents had to say.
I wouldn;t base my decision on any website - not matter how fancy.
I should also point out that all the sections apart from primary, offer a clear explanation of the curriculum and learning stages.
Also - it may have to do with the IBO. I don;t know exactly when the ESF got their PYP accreditation, but this may have something to do with it. The know that the IB is pretty strict about the context in which the words MYP, IB Diploma and PYP etc can be used.
And whether or not a child could swop from one school to the other would depend entirely on the child. As I said before, children develop at different rates in different subjects, and it's very difficult to ascertain whether a child who is 'behind' is so due to the teaching mtehod, home support, ability, effort etc etc. That is where parents need to be aware, which is what you are trying to be.
I still don't understand where the concern comes from. If you are in HK already, which you are, and your child may be changing schools, go and visit the school(s) involved.
Quite frankly, there are enough local children (and by local, I mean those resident in HK, irrespective of ethnicity/nationality) on the wait list for ESF schools without me being too concerned over people moving into the city. The problem there is with lack of appropriate places, which is another issue entirely.
notmyaisle
Registered User
Thank you both for contributing to this thread. As a parent in exactly the situation you describe above (and as one that whinged on this board about the whole process of getting an interview!) I would have loved more information about ESF but there was no more or less information on any other school's website.
We have been over for interview with an ESF school and for another independent school and after looking around both, and being lucky enough to have been offered a place at both, what did I base my decision on?
My gut instinct!
We plumped for the ESF school because "it just felt right" - maybe my decision may bite me on the backside later down the line but, I left there feeling far happier that I did at the second school.
To be honest, I don't care what ESF offer as a brand. I care about what any particular school offers my child. I realise if you are already living in HK and, possibly, you are slightly more restricted to ESF schools because the fees are lower than some others, it would be frustrating to know your child could only go to one particular school because of the catchment system. But, if you think that another ESF school is "better" in some way then, I would think that you resolve it in the same way as you do where I currently live - you move your home to the new catchment area
