BF interval stretch longer = milk ss drop?

hi sarah
thanks again! Sorry for the many questions...just wan to equip myself with the RIGHT knowledge. Erm...you were saying "Your body just replaced the milk she takes out so as she takes more milk out – you replace more." Wouldnt this cause an oversupply or at least increase the amount of milk inside me? For eg, pls correct me if i'm wrong.. say my breasts have accustomed itself to storing 750ml per 24hours, subject to baby taking it out in whichever schedule she'd like, every 2-3 hours, taking 100-150ml per feed, rite? Then, during growth spurts, she will nurse more often, thus creating "the bank" (my breasts) to store more than 750ml, correct? Maybe increased to 850ml. So does that mean, from there on, my breasts will store 850ml worth of milk from there on, and then after growth spurt periods, will decreased back to 750ml?

What are the problems associated with oversupply? I pump partially becos i'd like to have my hubby get in the task of feeding baby as well. Becos he's at work mostly, during weekends, he felt he's not bonding well with baby. Baby cries when he tries to carry and coax her to sleep. :(

As for the meetings, i'll try!! :) but i stay in Kowloon, and we havent dont drive, so right now, the furthest i'd venture outside of home is my mall downstairs...HK island is a tad too adventurous for me right now :p
 
Fore Milk and Hind Milk

The relationship between how much sugar and fat is in your milk is much more complicated than saying ?the hind milk comes after x minutes?.

When your breasts are full the milk has more sugar in it (this is called foremilk) and as your breasts are emptying the fat content of the milk increases (this is called hind milk). The change ? a decrease in sugar and an increase in fat ? occurs smoothly. There is no jump when the milk suddenly has more fat and becomes hind milk.

If your baby manages to take most of the milk in your breasts when he feeds then at each feed your milk will have more sugar at the beginning and more fat at the end.

If, however, you have more milk than the baby can take in one feed (the usual case) then your milk will have more sugar in the morning and more fat in the evening. And it is possible that the milk at the start of an evening feed has more fat content than the milk at the end of a morning feed!

What I really want to say is please don?t worry about foremilk and hind milk. Your baby is already two months old and doing well. You have no problems with your milk or your breastfeeding. Try to relax and enjoy your baby - you are doing great.

Best wishes,
SARAH
 
The way the breast works is NOT like the way the bottle works. With a bottle - it is full, partially full or empty ? and once empty you have to refill it. Whereas the breast is never empty because YOU ARE ALWAYS MAKING MILK. The only time you stop making milk is when your breasts are so full they can?t hold any more.

It is not volume that can be stored but rate of making the milk that is important. You don?t have to hold the 750 mls the baby drinks each day all at once. But you do need for your breasts to be making milk at an average rate of around 30 mls per hour (= 720 mls per 24 hours) - remember that is only 15 mls per hour per breast.

Milk is being produced at all times, with rate of making depending upon how empty the breast is. When your breast is full your milk production is slow. But when your breasts are empty your milk production is fast.

Milk collects in your breasts between feedings, so the amount of milk stored in the breast between feedings is greater when more time has passed since the last feed. The more milk in the breast, the slower the rate of making milk.

To speed the rate of making milk and increase daily milk production, the key is to remove more milk from the breast and to do this FREQUENTLY, so that less milk accumulates in the breast between feedings:

In practice, this means that a mother who wishes to increase milk supply should aim to keep the breasts as empty as possible throughout the day. And the mother who wants to decrease her milk should leave longer between emptying the breast. Leaving longer between feeds can be difficult as babies still want to feed often so we suggest block feeding where you feed on one side for x number of hours and for the next x hours on the other side ? thus leaving more milk in the breast and slowing the rate of making the milk.

Linda Smith explains how this works with her 80:20 concept. The 80 percent is the usual amount of milk taken by baby each day. The 20 percent is the residual amount of milk that remains in mother's breasts. If more than 80 percent of the milk is removed, supply increases to maintain the 80-20 ratio. If less than 80 percent is removed, supply decreases to maintain the 80-20 ratio.
How Mother's Milk Is Made
http://www.llli.org//llleaderweb/LV/LVJunJul01p54.html

Another good article is How does milk production work?
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/milkproduction.html

Best wishes,
SARAH
 
fennho said:
What are the problems associated with oversupply? I pump partially becos i'd like to have my hubby get in the task of feeding baby as well. Becos he's at work mostly, during weekends, he felt he's not bonding well with baby. Baby cries when he tries to carry and coax her to sleep. :(
Click to expand...

Problems for the baby with forceful let-down and oversupply:

  • Gag, choke, strangle, gulp, gasp, cough while nursing as though the milk is coming too fast
  • Pull off the breast often while nursing
  • Clamp down on the nipple at let-down to slow the flow of milk
  • Make a clicking sound when nursing
  • Spit up very often and/or tend to be very gassy
  • Periodically refuse to nurse
  • Dislike comfort nursing in general

Problems for the mother with over supply:

  • Prolonged engorgement
  • Repeated plugged ducts – possibly resulting in repeated mastitis if not treated quickly.

Pumping occasionally to let the baby’s father do a feed should be no problem, especially as your baby is now two months old. We recommend that this practice isn’t started before the baby really knows how to breastfeed – usually around the four to six week mark.

If your baby isn't use to the father holding her I'd suggest that he try to hold her as much as possible, especially while she is calm and happy (when she is asleep is ideal). My husband used to love holding our babies and watching the TV at the same time.

Best wisehs,
SARAH
 
one more word of advice from one mom "who's been there". if you always worry that you have to pump to empty the breast, plus you have to nurse every 3 hours, you'll soon find bfeeding a very tiring task, and taking you too much time. pls try to set a plan of how frequent you nurse & pump, so that you don't over-demand your breast, hence oversupplying, hence overworking yourself. try to spend your energy enjoying nursing your baby instead of worrying too much. as Sarah said yoyr bb is 2 mths & you seem to be doing a good job with your milk & all. you will only be nursing for such little time & it will be one of the best & most treasured time being a om when you look back.

my bb is 3 years old now. i bfeed her until she was 16mths. she weaned herself. she now obviously still has fond memories of nursing & so do i. i wish i was still nursing her sometimes....especially when she's sick. i so want to give her my anti-bodies!! and when you see that your baby has gained so much weight & grown so much in the first 6 mths before he started solid, you know how much nutrients you have given him. it's an amazing feeling that cannot be described. i think all mom's hwo have breastfed their babies would agree with me.

good luck, relax, enjoy & keep up the good work!
 
btw, i see that you have loads of questions, but don't we all when we first breasfed. we don't have tribes of women to help us, most of us are on our own. that's where Sarah & her other LLL leaders come in. they are the most supportive & iinformative breastfeeding support you can get. they've all been there so you don't have to feel intimidated. i feel forever grateful for my LLL leader for being there to listen & give me suggestions when i was lost.

so ask away, girl!
 
hi sarah
my gratitude to u again for your patience in explaining the concept to me. I have read thru your latest reply and again, some questions arise:

As u were saying, it's not the volume but the rate the milk is produced that is important, ie how quickly its being replenished, rite? So if the breast is empty, it produces faster. Now, this is wat i'm always worried about...that my breasts are not making the milk fast enough if my baby sleeps longer and interval stretching longer! I guess this is why people advising me to pump to empty it. Back to my situation, so, does that mean that if baby is sleeping a long stretch at night, say an interval of 7-8 hours from her last feed, i shud jus leave my breast as it is and NOT pump, but pump only to relieve any discomfort and not to empty it? But wouldnt that cause the milk production to slow down since the breast is so full?

And when baby starts stretching longer interval as they grow, say from 3hourly feed to 4hours interval, wouldnt this slow the milk production rate as well? but since the quantity baby feeds stay the same eg 750ml per day, how would the breast cope?

I am sorry if some of the questions seems a little dumb and obvious, but it's jus that there's soooo many info flying here and there from "well-meaning" people that it confuses me! As i'm doing direct latching, needless to say, i have no idea how much she's drinking exactly. So, am not even sure if she's taking in the recommended amount per 24hour! She's quite a chubby baby now, and if in the past, i was worried about her not getting enough, now i'm worried if she's gonna be overweight or obese..i have read that BF babies DO get obese as well. She is now 6.2kg and have not even reached 3month mark yet! I read the weight chart and realised she's in the 95th percentile.

I am eternally grateful as well for your guidances, so far it makes a lot of sense to me, thus am asking more to educate myself more!

Your list of problems associated with oversupply hit quite a few points with me. My baby have 4 out of the 7 symptoms u listed! Perhaps i started with low supply (or at least i think i was cos my breasts were not reacting well to the pump i bought) hence my paranoia of keeping up my ss for fear of not being able to BF my baby for at least 6months.

BTW, if i really am hvg tis oversupply issue, how do i solve tis problem?

joannek
thanks for your response as well. I really do want to BF my princess for at least 6months and beyond. But sometimes i do find it so tiring and permanently attached to her. I cant be away from her for more than 3hours cos of her feeding interval. I love her to bits, but sometimes i admit i do feel a little "trapped". I feel guilty to have these thots! Which is why i was asking Sarah earlier when approximately do babies usually start having longer feeding intervals, and shorter feeding time..at least i can have something to look forward to! My bb is feeding at 3hour interval, sometimes even 2 (and it's not a growth spurt!). Sometimes i feel i'm a useless mommy cos i till now, i dont think i'm able to identify her hunger cries and distinguished it with her other cries (tired, discomfort, etc)

Sorry for the long rant, and thanks again for listening...u all have no idea how much it means to me!!
 
Dear Fennho,

I?m a little confused by your questions. If your baby is going longer between feeds you must have some milk stored to give to her so why are you worrying?

Let?s say you?ve just feed your baby and she took lots of your milk so that there isn?t much left in the breast. So now your breast is nearly empty thus you are making milk very fast. As your breast fills up the rate of making milk slows down. So after a while you are half full. But it could take the same time again to get to three quarters full (because the rate has slowed). Then the same time again to get to seven eights full, etc. Remember you have to go through the fast rate of making milk to get to the slow rate and will only get to the slow rate when you have quite a lot already stored in your breasts.

It doesn?t really matter when the baby feeds if your breasts are full or empty. As it is the vigorousness that the baby feeds with that determines how much milk the baby gets out. When talking about breastfeeding never forget the baby in the equation.

I think I?ve complicated the whole situation by trying to explain how the breast works because it doesn?t matter. The breast still works even if we don?t understand it (just like gravity). All the knowledge we have these days is getting in the way of natural breastfeeding.

Let?s stop and think about how mothers managed hundreds of years ago. They didn?t know about fore milk and hind milk (only discovered 15 years ago), they didn?t know about pumping and storing milk, they didn?t know exactly how the milk was made (again only learnt inthe last 20 years). All they knew was that if you kept feeding your baby your body looked after the workings for you and the baby grew.

From everything you?ve told me I can tell that your baby is getting enough milk and so you have a healthy milk supply. Let your body do its work ? the only thing you need to do to keep your milk is to keep feeding your baby.

As your baby grows your body is expecting your baby to grow. Part of the baby growing is that there is longer between feeds ? your body is expecting this and will cope with it.

When your baby is between 12 and 24 months the number of feeds will be a lot less than now (maybe just one or two feeds a day). But if you continue to feed her your body will continue to make milk. As babies wean themselves it is possible to have gaps as long as a week or even two between feeds and there is still milk there for when the baby wants to feed ? no pumping is required ? just a baby growing up.

The only time you need to pump is to collect milk for a time when you will not be with your baby to feed her. There is no point pumping when you are planning to stay together. And as you are now worried about possible over supply I?d stop all unnecessary pumping.

It usually takes a couple of days for the milk supply to settle down. If you still have the over supply symptoms then give me a call on 2548-7636 and let?s chat about exactly how you are managing the feeds. I need to know what you are doing now to give information about reducing the oversupply symptoms.

Breastfeed babies have a different growth curve to bottle fed babies. They tend to put a lot of weight on in the first three months and then slow down. So don?t worry if your baby looks cubby at the moment by the time she is one year old she?ll look much slimmer.

Best wishes,
SARAH
 
hi sarah

sorry for the confusion...what i was trying to ask is if the baby taking longer to feed, the breasts will be full with the milk, rite? So, when the breasts are full, it will not make any more milk rite? And after a while, it will slow down production, correct? So when growth spurts is around, then what?

Today i dunno what happened, she fed at 545pm till 620pm, emptying my breast thoroughly (went all soft), then i burped her, changed her diaper, and tried to pat her to sleep cos she was yawning away earlier, she struggled abit and was abit unhappy, i realised she was doing the rooting thing again, pick her up and indeed, when she was in my arms, she turned towards my breast...i latched her on and she suckle away! Tat was at 7pm. I am wary of feeding her too much. Can a BF baby feed too much? I know most people say babies are smart enough to know how to stop but i am still worried cos she seems to be so chubby now. Even my PD was saying he HAS seen BF babies that are obese! :( I feel like such a useless mommy, sometimes i dont even know if she's crying for food, or other things. If a baby is crying for something else other than hunger, and u give her the breasts, she will STILL suckle rite?
 
Dear Fennho,

It doesn?t sound to me that you are a bad mother ? it sounds like you are doing a great job. You are with your baby and feeding her when she wants to be fed.

fennho said:
sorry for the confusion...what i was trying to ask is if the baby taking longer to feed, the breasts will be full with the milk, rite? So, when the breasts are full, it will not make any more milk rite? And after a while, it will slow down production, correct? So when growth spurts is around, then what?
Click to expand...

On a normal day the baby will take about 75% of the milk you have stored in your breasts. So when there is a growth spurt you have the other 25% to give her. After she has fed you make milk very fast and so even if she wants to feed 15 minutes late you still have loads to give her. If you truly think that she has drunk all the milk ? give her the other side ? it will definitely have milk there. Why do you think we were made with two breasts? After all having twins isn?t common.

It really doesn?t matter why your baby wants to nurse ? she may be hungry, or thirsty, or bored, or lonely, or too hot, or too cold, or frighten by something, or sleepy or almost anything. If she wants to nurse letting her is never the wrong thing to do. And breastfeeding will solve all these problems so it doesn?t really matter what the problem is.

Some breastfeed babies are fat but as I said yesterday they loose the extra fat. My third child weighted 19 lbs at four months but by the time he was 12 months he only weighed 22 lbs. Breastfeed babies tend to put on loots of weight in the first three months and then slow down ? don?t worry about this ? it is normal.

Did you read about the chocolate cake syndrome I mentioned? (It is in the thread entitled Not enough milk - Top up bottles, http://www.geobaby.com/forum/not-eno...t119515p2.html) It sounds like your baby wanted some chocolate cake this evening ? that is fine ? it is always nice to have a dessert.

Best wishes,
SARAH
 
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